tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post8770005543435353736..comments2023-11-29T07:39:34.401+00:00Comments on Carla Nayland Historical Fiction: The Tide of War, by Seth Hunter. Book reviewCarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-58491897214286575222010-07-21T02:20:38.983+01:002010-07-21T02:20:38.983+01:00To the frustration of hard core geeks like me, Hol...To the frustration of hard core geeks like me, Hollywood has also established some viewer preconceptions about the future!Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-70881254778946073882010-07-20T10:59:23.771+01:002010-07-20T10:59:23.771+01:00I suspect it fits, or could be made to fit, quite ...I suspect it fits, or could be made to fit, quite a lot of kings over the years. Very, very few will have been canny enough to keep a handle on all the politicking going on around their courts, many will have started to lose their grip through age and/or illness, and quite a few seem not to have had much of a grip to begin with. Your second example is essentially saying something about people and their relationships, not about the setting as such, and people have no doubt been making dubious plots behind the back of the supposed leader since the days of Ug the cave man, and will no doubt continue to so so until the end of time.<br /><br />HF worldbuilding is in some respects easier than SF and in some respects harder. Easier because there are surviving tales from the past and sometimes surviving artefacts, like castle ruins or classical temples, to give readers a bit of an anchor point, whereas SF deals with the future and by definition there are no tales or artefacts from the future. Harder because readers may have a preconception of the past (especially if it has been extensively Hollywood-ised, e.g. ancient Rome), whereas SF can be more of a clean slate. Fairy tales are often set in a nebulous 'past' world, with castles and knights and swords and such, so to some extent HF and fantasy has that very long cultural tradition to draw on.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-7110338301257590232010-07-20T00:03:45.037+01:002010-07-20T00:03:45.037+01:00Alas, you're right that my example doesn't...Alas, you're right that my example doesn't fit my argument. Jane Austen could indeed have written something like that (especially since it would fit George III rather well).<br /><br />I'm not sure what a better example would be. Come to think of it, in the case of hist fic the 'reading protocols' must have been developed and learned in the 19th century, when the genre developed.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-31368405622467174902010-07-17T16:07:13.497+01:002010-07-17T16:07:13.497+01:00Hello and welcome. I haven't read Isabel Alle...Hello and welcome. I haven't read Isabel Allende's Zorro novel yet.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-20169562093031627362010-07-16T21:03:23.250+01:002010-07-16T21:03:23.250+01:00Excellent review. I love historical fiction mysel...Excellent review. I love historical fiction myself. Talking about Isabel Allende, did anyone read her reinvention of Zorro?<br /><br />She did a lot of reserach and its an interesting read about California, New Mexico and New Orleans - and a great book as well.<br /><br />Zohar<br />http://manoflabook.comAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-85292071307971274982010-07-16T18:58:58.493+01:002010-07-16T18:58:58.493+01:00Gabriele - um, yes, Blogger was playing up when I ...Gabriele - um, yes, Blogger was playing up when I tried to post the comment. Ah well, one can't complain about a free system :-)<br /><br />This isn't really Pirates of the Caribbean - it doesn't have the comedy or the paranormal elements, it has rather more of a plot, and there's no Johnny Depp (Imlay probably comes closest...). The main plot is the political intrigue around Louisiana, with the pirates providing action set-pieces. <br /><br />Rick - That's an interesting point - do you think readers have changed that much? I can see that readers familiar with Star Trek and Star Wars might find it easier to pick up on your first example, though your second strikes me as the sort of sly aside Jane Austen might have written.<br /><br />Annis - depending on the rest of the context, I might find mother-swyving more startling than its modern equivalent, but I agree with you, kudos to the author for coming up with it! I also quite like having things explained to me; my guess is that "As you know, Bob" became a term in SF as a reaction to some really clunky exposition in story magazines and novels that might be considered, ahem, less than classic. Rick is better qualified to comment on this than me, he's the SF expert. <br /> <br />It may just be that having noticed and disliked a clunky explanation in one book, you become more on the alert for it in others and notice it more. That could account for why they seem to come in clusters, maybe?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-56689838330734668582010-07-13T06:39:03.211+01:002010-07-13T06:39:03.211+01:00Re use of the "F' word, kudos to the auth...Re use of the "F' word, kudos to the author of a medieval tale I read recently who went with "mother-swyving" as being at least a more period-appropriate interpretation of a modern epithet!<br /><br />I like the "As you know, Bob" technique :) It's not that I have an objection to the technique as such, just that it shouldn't jump out at the reader but fit into the storyline without being overly obvious. Not sure if I'm becoming more perceptive (unlikely) picky (possible) or if it's just that I've been unlucky lately in reading several novels written by authors having trouble with it.Annishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367569632016734415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-30017743120994076002010-07-13T03:34:22.262+01:002010-07-13T03:34:22.262+01:00Another SF term is 'tell me, Professor.'
...Another SF term is 'tell me, Professor.'<br /><br />The task is potentially easier now than 50 years ago, and not just in science fiction, because the <i>idea</i> of exotic settings is more familiar to audiences. Readers have more sense of how to pick up and interpret small cues.<br /><br />A standard SF example is 'the door dilated,' as quickly telling the reader they're in a future tech where doors dilate instead of just opening. Similarly a line like 'The old king, bless his soul, knew nothing of it,' provides a wealth of political background information.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-68565388972672640862010-07-12T17:31:40.061+01:002010-07-12T17:31:40.061+01:00Heh, you posted that comment three times, Carla. L...Heh, you posted that comment three times, Carla. Looks like Blogger had a hiccup again. <br /><br />I'm not sure about this one. I'm one of the rare people to whom the whole pirates along the American coast doesn't appeal as book setting (though I enjoyed the first Pirates of the Carribean movie).Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-29236675448349606812010-07-12T10:37:12.925+01:002010-07-12T10:37:12.925+01:00Annis - that's interesting re Isabel Allende. ...Annis - that's interesting re Isabel Allende. I haven't read that book.<br />I believe in SF that's known as the "As you know, Bob" technique. SF, fantasy and historical fiction all have the same task of building a world for the reader to step into that <i>isn't</i> the same as the reader's everyday world, and indeed the fact that it is different is part of the attraction. But although it's new to the reader it's familiar to the characters, since they live there, so the author has the conundrum of explaining it to the reader without having the chracters explain it to each other. Not easy! One way to do it is to have a central character who doesn't already have much of the knowledge, such as a new recruit, a young person or child or a foreigner. In Lord of the Rings Frodo doesn't know all that much about the Ring or the history of Middel-Earth, and the other hobbits know even less, so Gandalf and Aragorn explain it to the hobbits as the story goes along and, by extension, to the reader. It does depend on having a character to whom the information is new, though. A character explaining things to him/herself often works quite well, I think - it's natural for people to mull over events and information they already know when they are trying to come to terms with something or make a decision. <br />Thank you for the compliment - what a lovely thing to say!<br /><br />Rick - Well, it fairly gallops once it gets going :-) Or whatever the nautical equivalent would be. Yes, I can imagine the author had great fun with it, packing in one set-piece after another. It looks as if the next book is back in Europe, judging from the ending of this one, so I don't think we get to see any more of the Gulf of Mexico and the slave rebellions.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-45569173740868506012010-07-12T10:37:08.209+01:002010-07-12T10:37:08.209+01:00Annis - that's interesting re Isabel Allende. ...Annis - that's interesting re Isabel Allende. I haven't read that book.<br />I believe in SF that's known as the "As you know, Bob" technique. SF, fantasy and historical fiction all have the same task of building a world for the reader to step into that <i>isn't</i> the same as the reader's everyday world, and indeed the fact that it is different is part of the attraction. But although it's new to the reader it's familiar to the characters, since they live there, so the author has the conundrum of explaining it to the reader without having the chracters explain it to each other. Not easy! One way to do it is to have a central character who doesn't already have much of the knowledge, such as a new recruit, a young person or child or a foreigner. In Lord of the Rings Frodo doesn't know all that much about the Ring or the history of Middel-Earth, and the other hobbits know even less, so Gandalf and Aragorn explain it to the hobbits as the story goes along and, by extension, to the reader. It does depend on having a character to whom the information is new, though. A character explaining things to him/herself often works quite well, I think - it's natural for people to mull over events and information they already know when they are trying to come to terms with something or make a decision. <br />Thank you for the compliment - what a lovely thing to say!<br /><br />Rick - Well, it fairly gallops once it gets going :-) Or whatever the nautical equivalent would be. Yes, I can imagine the author had great fun with it, packing in one set-piece after another. It looks as if the next book is back in Europe, judging from the ending of this one, so I don't think we get to see any more of the Gulf of Mexico and the slave rebellions.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-82091454464752493342010-07-12T10:36:28.108+01:002010-07-12T10:36:28.108+01:00Annis - that's interesting re Isabel Allende. ...Annis - that's interesting re Isabel Allende. I haven't read that book.<br />I believe in SF that's known as the "As you know, Bob" technique. SF, fantasy and historical fiction all have the same task of building a world for the reader to step into that <i>isn't</i> the same as the reader's everyday world, and indeed the fact that it is different is part of the attraction. But although it's new to the reader it's familiar to the characters, since they live there, so the author has the conundrum of explaining it to the reader without having the chracters explain it to each other. Not easy! One way to do it is to have a central character who doesn't already have much of the knowledge, such as a new recruit, a young person or child or a foreigner. In Lord of the Rings Frodo doesn't know all that much about the Ring or the history of Middel-Earth, and the other hobbits know even less, so Gandalf and Aragorn explain it to the hobbits as the story goes along and, by extension, to the reader. It does depend on having a character to whom the information is new, though. A character explaining things to him/herself often works quite well, I think - it's natural for people to mull over events and information they already know when they are trying to come to terms with something or make a decision. <br />Thank you for the compliment - what a lovely thing to say!<br /><br />Rick - Well, it fairly gallops once it gets going :-) Or whatever the nautical equivalent would be. Yes, I can imagine the author had great fun with it, packing in one set-piece after another. It looks as if the next book is back in Europe, judging from the ending of this one, so I don't think we get to see any more of the Gulf of Mexico and the slave rebellions.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-4011396532178092892010-07-11T16:34:14.964+01:002010-07-11T16:34:14.964+01:00How on earth does he get off to 'a slow start&...How on earth does he get off to 'a slow start' and still have room for all of that in 427 pages? I'm exhausted just reading the review!<br /><br />I have the usual mixed feelings about things like the F word being used in anything but its literal sense. (And even there, why not the jolly 'roger'?)<br /><br />But that said, it sounds as if the author has great fun basically doing <i>Pirates of the Caribbean</i> in a historically accurate setting. <br /><br />The poor Gulf of Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States!Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-12538470694158765572010-07-11T05:04:20.083+01:002010-07-11T05:04:20.083+01:00I had a similar experience while reading Isabel Al...I had a similar experience while reading Isabel Allende's "Island Beneath the Sea" - <a href="http://www.historicalnovels.info/Island-Beneath-the-Sea.html" rel="nofollow">review here</a> -which has in some ways a similar setting- Haiti, Cuba and French Louisiana during the French Revolutionary period. It's a dramatic and violent period, yet the author holds the reader at a frustrating distance from the story.<br /><br />This puzzled me until I read an <a href="http://www.oregonlive.com/books/index.ssf/2010/05/isabel_allende_talks_about_res.html" rel="nofollow">interview with Allende</a> in which she says that she found reading about the horrific conditions for slaves on Saint-Domingue (later Haiti) made her physically ill. I realised then that she coped by distancing herself from the events she found so disturbing. However in doing so she also prevents the reader from becoming fully involved in the story.<br /><br />Sounds as if your author may have been indulging in another technique I've noticed quite often lately in HF, though- a tendency to deus ex machina-style addition of information which often feels rather clunky. (Eg. main character explains to himself or another character details about which they would already have been perfectly familiar) This impedes the flow and has the effect of dragging the reader out of the story. <br /><br />One of the things I particularly admired about "Paths of Exile" was the way you seamlessly included a lot of information without slowing down the story - it's a real art :).Annishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367569632016734415noreply@blogger.com