tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post1400101462522120861..comments2023-11-29T07:39:34.401+00:00Comments on Carla Nayland Historical Fiction: The Queen of Last Hopes, by Susan Higginbotham. Book reviewCarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-24514565530296568462011-01-29T17:15:28.292+00:002011-01-29T17:15:28.292+00:00You may well be right (I can't remember Cecil&...You may well be right (I can't remember Cecil's view), and that says a lot about the situation. There's a line in a historical novel somewhere (can't remember which, maybe one of Margaret Irwin's) that has the ageing Henry VIII or one of his courtiers, grumping to himself about the Tudor line having "run to seed in a crop of girls". Fictional, but one can easily imagine such thoughts in circulation at the time, especially after old Henry's strenuous attempts to produce a male heir.<br /><br />It can't just be the portrait of Henry VII that does it. He does have a calculating look, as if he is weighing you up as either a potential threat or a source of money (understandable given his experience, and probably quite a sensible default attitude for a king who would like to stay that way), but I'd say Edward IV looks even more unprepossessing in his portrait. Not starting expensive foreign wars probably counted against Henry VII in the glamour stakes, not to mention the contrast with Henry VIII who was the epitome of glamour in his golden youth (in part thanks to being able to spend the money his father had built up).Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-10314211164124765432011-01-29T02:25:44.857+00:002011-01-29T02:25:44.857+00:00Mary Q of S did indeed (supposedly) say that. As i...Mary Q of S did indeed (supposedly) say that. As it was, the male claimant situation was so tenuous that when Elizabeth had her smallpox bout, several of her councilors, including IIRC Cecil, were prepared to opt for Catherine Grey. That's major desperation, especially for 16th c. males.<br /><br />I have wondered the same thing about Henry VII. As you say, the basic facts of his life and reign lend themselves to romance. It is as if he somehow just can't escape the combination of Francis Bacon and that familiar portrait.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-89009153134717682632011-01-28T20:26:13.386+00:002011-01-28T20:26:13.386+00:00Rick - If Elizabeth had had a serious male rival s...Rick - If Elizabeth had had a serious male rival she might have ended up marrying him - isn't Mary Queen of Scots supposed to have said it was a pity that the two of them couldn't marry each other? The ramifications are endless.<br /><br />It's always struck me as slightly curious that Henry VII has such an unglamorous image. His story can be written as pure romance - years in exile, then winning his kingdom on the battlefield from the Wicked Usurper, marrying a beautiful princess, restoring peace after decades of war and living (more or less) happily ever after. If you choose to believe that Wicked Richard III was harrassing Elizabeth of York, you can even throw rescuing a damsel in distress into the mix without stretching the history beyond breaking point. Yet his popular image is one of an especially dull accountant. I rather think he is much under-rated.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-66799530851185623752011-01-28T17:28:24.492+00:002011-01-28T17:28:24.492+00:00Yes, if Elizabeth had had a serious male rival her...Yes, if Elizabeth had had a serious male rival her situation would have been a lot tougher. The effect on her subsequent reputation would depend first and foremost on what actually happened!<br /><br />(And yes, the Victorian reception of Boudica was surely affected by Victoria.)<br /><br />One further pop-history burden that the Lancastrians suffer from is that the ultimately successful Lancastrian, Henry VII, is so profoundly unglamorous. Even being the first royal Tudor fails to rescue him from pop-culture obscurity.<br /><br />Yes, his Lancastrian claim was itself pretty exiguous, but if he had cut a dashing figure no one would care, and the entire Lancastrian cause would bask in his retrospective glow.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-20011932823119659052011-01-27T12:53:40.424+00:002011-01-27T12:53:40.424+00:00Al - Hello and welcome. No, I haven't read it...Al - Hello and welcome. No, I haven't read it.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-17451284813211863282011-01-27T10:01:11.244+00:002011-01-27T10:01:11.244+00:00off topic.
have you read Eiffelheim by Michael Fl...off topic.<br /><br />have you read Eiffelheim by Michael Flynn?<br /><br />a review of it would be good.<br /><br />alAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-49899266226484835822011-01-25T20:36:08.442+00:002011-01-25T20:36:08.442+00:00Gabriele - Yes, exactly. Tacitus is ascribing som...Gabriele - Yes, exactly. Tacitus is ascribing some noble virtues to the tribal leaders, as a contrast with and a reproach to the decadence he perceived in the politicians of his own day. It would be fascinating to have an account from the tribal side - a Saga of Calgacus or Lay of Arminius - to compare. Absent that, at least they had a sympathetic historian even if he was from the other side; Tacitus's 'noble barbarians' may have a generous component of fiction or wishful thinking, but at least it feels a bit more balanced than the 'evil savage' sort of stereotype.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-40249254104396106132011-01-25T20:10:31.396+00:002011-01-25T20:10:31.396+00:00Tacitus had a bit of a soft spot for those tribal ...Tacitus had a bit of a soft spot for those tribal leaders fighting Rome, be it Arminius, Boudicca, Civilis, or Calgacus. They still had some ideals, or could be ascribed those ideals, Rome had lost after the Republic ended in a mess, and Tacitus was missing some of the better aspects of the Republic. Thus all those freedom speeches he gives them. :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-30123558865384385672011-01-25T16:31:01.277+00:002011-01-25T16:31:01.277+00:00Rick - One contrast between Elizabeth's positi...Rick - One contrast between Elizabeth's position and that of Margaret of Anjou and Empress Maud is that there was no serious rival male claimant to Elizabeth's throne. If Lady Jane Grey had had a brother (or even a baby son) Elizabeth's reputation might have developed very differently indeed, had there been a faction that had an interest in denigrating Elizabeth in favour of their own candidate. <br /><br />Tacitus portrays Boudica in a 'heroic' role, which has probably influenced later perceptions of her (even if his account does say as much about Tacitus' opinions on contemporary Roman morals and politics as about Boudica herself). It's also worth noting that the inscription on that London statue says something like "Regions Caesar never knew / Thy posterity shall sway", so the statue is as much about the imperial ambitions of Victorian England as anything to do with the historical Boudica. The presence of Queen Victoria as the contemporary figurehead of the British Empire presumably also acted as a spur to look for a suitably heroic female precedent. Interestingly, earlier seventeenth-century fictional representations of Boudica give her a bad press and hand all the heroism to Caratacus. Each era finds its own history...<br /><br />Yes, it is good to see a Wars of the Roses novel from a Lancastrian standpoint. I haven't read anything like the full crop, but there does seem to be a preponderance of Yorkist novels, presumably reflecting the popularity of Richard III revisionism and re-revisionism. Perhaps also because Richard III can be made glamorous (either as Evil Bad Guy or as Misunderstood Good Guy), and Edward IV has a certain amount of swashbuckling style, whereas Henry VI isn't an obviously glamorous character and Edward of Lancaster didn't really live long enough to get the chance.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-76734900063517614412011-01-22T17:15:13.610+00:002011-01-22T17:15:13.610+00:00The treatment of historical women who step out of ...The treatment of historical women who step out of role seems to go both ways - maligned, or else exalted. <br /><br />Think of Elizabeth I. Would even an equally successful king have quite her outsized reputation? For that matter, Boudica/Boadicea was not (ultimately) successful, but that statue in London shows that her heroic image was established well before the contemporary feminist warrior-queen thing.<br /><br />What struck me most in reading the review is that someone has actually written a sympathetic treatment of a Lancastrian.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-91767763244250215772011-01-20T14:23:44.972+00:002011-01-20T14:23:44.972+00:00Gabriele - Good point. Antonia Fraser mentions a ...Gabriele - Good point. Antonia Fraser mentions a similar theme in her book Warrior Queens. I don't remember if Margaret of Anjou was one of her case studies, but she makes the same point as you about women being castigated for stepping outside the expected role. Empress Maud/Matilda had a similarly bad press. Possibly both made political/diplomatic errors, but an inept man (King Stephen was, shall we say, not the greatest king England ever had) was allowed a lot more leeway. Interestingly, I don't detect the same note of censure in relation to Aethelflaed Lady of the Mercians, although the ASC is so laconic it would be hard to tell.<br /><br />Kathryn - thanks! Let us know what you think of it.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-41286106379626448972011-01-20T08:52:41.155+00:002011-01-20T08:52:41.155+00:00Great review! I'm really looking forward to r...Great review! I'm really looking forward to reading the novel.Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-68807514777444985882011-01-17T02:15:39.741+00:002011-01-17T02:15:39.741+00:00I think many historical women who stepped out of t...I think many historical women who stepped out of their expected role have been maligned by chronicles and authors. I just mentioned Livia in another discussion - surely not a saint but I doubt she was fully as evil as Graves portrays here in <i>I Claudius</i>. Margaret may have suffered some of the same fate.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.com