tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post8798518960809204128..comments2023-11-29T07:39:34.401+00:00Comments on Carla Nayland Historical Fiction: Dating the Battle of ChesterCarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-58269092768732630622008-03-19T20:59:00.000+00:002008-03-19T20:59:00.000+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-39315332903126276802008-02-21T12:27:00.000+00:002008-02-21T12:27:00.000+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-42063773571091969642007-05-29T15:28:00.000+01:002007-05-29T15:28:00.000+01:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-73604582910967900492007-04-17T20:40:00.000+01:002007-04-17T20:40:00.000+01:00Hello, Lynne, and thanks for dropping by. Yes, I ...Hello, Lynne, and thanks for dropping by. Yes, I have a copy of the Liverpool translation and am plugging my way through it :-) Some of it is extremely interesting, like his comments about <A HREF="http://carlanayland.blogspot.com/2007/03/lunar-eclipses-and-dark-ages.html" REL="nofollow">eclipses and tides</A>.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-51817051518486446642007-04-17T19:01:00.000+01:002007-04-17T19:01:00.000+01:00For Bede on dating, the book is _On the Reckoning ...For Bede on dating, the book is _On the Reckoning of Time_ and discusses in GRUESOME detail how dates should be settled on. His primary focus is the dating of Easter, but for that he basically writes a history of the world since creation. It's pretty interesting in parts, deadly in others. There was a recent translation/reprint from, I think, the U of Liverpool Press. Bede was really THOROUGH in his analysis!<BR/>LynneAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-874130390443654502007-04-14T15:18:00.000+01:002007-04-14T15:18:00.000+01:00Elena - glad you found it interesting.Elena - glad you found it interesting.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-38944151951180810402007-04-13T20:23:00.000+01:002007-04-13T20:23:00.000+01:00Interesting post and discussion. Yes, total fun!Interesting post and discussion. Yes, total fun!elena maria vidalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129629173535139807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-73697571828463410222007-04-10T18:05:00.000+01:002007-04-10T18:05:00.000+01:00Gabriele/Rick - reminds me of a joke that was doin...Gabriele/Rick - reminds me of a joke that was doing the rounds when I was at school, "Which lasts longer, a Pope or a wine gum?"<BR/>People probably said the same in the Year of the Four Emperors :-)<BR/>Some early English kings lasted for 20+ years, so they didn't all have the life expectancy of mayflies, though perhaps the unsuccessful ones didn't get recorded (as per Bede's comment about assigning Catwallaun's year to Oswald - even if you disregard Catwallaun as an invader there were at least two 'legit' short-lived kings, Eanfrith of Bernicia and Osric of Deira who apparently got airbrushed out of the record on Bede's say-so). Pity there isn't a complete sample of reign lengths to do any statistics with.<BR/><BR/>At least the magistrates changed on a regular cycle, which might have made it easier than regnal dates.<BR/><BR/>Regnal dates really fall apart in times of civil war when you have two or more kings at the same time in different bits of the country and/or rapid back-and-forth changes between them. Wouldn't it have been fun trying to make any sense of the Wars of the Roses if all you had was regnal dates? Cummins argues that some of the Pictish king-lists represent something similar, if memory serves.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-87975067675911740172007-04-10T17:30:00.000+01:002007-04-10T17:30:00.000+01:00Not to mention kings in those times often had a sh...<I>Not to mention kings in those times often had a shorter life expectancy than the coach of an unsuccessful soccer team in Germany.</I><BR/><BR/>LOL!<BR/><BR/>But at least kings often reigned for a few years, and sometimes for decades. In antiquity, republican magistrates almost always changed yearly, making the list that much more cumbersome.<BR/><BR/>As an odd side note, I know by memory the kings of England/UK from Billy the Bastard to Edward VII (though not regnal dates), but it breaks down in this century - I'm not <I>quite</I> sure of the ones between Edward VII and Liz II!Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-19388456087214237162007-04-10T15:45:00.000+01:002007-04-10T15:45:00.000+01:00Not to mention kings in those times often had a sh...Not to mention kings in those times often had a shorter life expectancy than the coach of an unsuccessful soccer team in Germany. :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-33693271625965328202007-04-10T10:34:00.000+01:002007-04-10T10:34:00.000+01:00Gabriele/Megumi - indeed, filling in the gaps and ...Gabriele/Megumi - indeed, filling in the gaps and the contradictions is the fun of writing fiction. Some historians writing non-fiction do it as well, though I much prefer the ones who clearly indicate the line between facts and speculation.<BR/><BR/>Rick - Bede had access to Roman historians like Pliny and Orosius, letters from the Pope to various English kings), and his British material for the 5th and 6th centuries seems to be mostly Gildas. He also mentions 'traditional story' from time to time (e.g. the famous story of Pope Gregory and the Deiran slave boys) and eyewitness accounts (e.g. King Aldwulf of the East Angles testifying that he remembered King Raedwald's dual-purpose temple). As he gets within a century or so of his own time his account gets a lot fuller and more detailed, which presumably reflects an increase in the sources available to him.<BR/><BR/>Bede is credited with inventing the AD dating system, probably for just the reasons you mention. It seems clear that kings' reigns were also used to reckon time in his day in the same sort of way as Roman consular years, as he refers to agreeing to assign the year of Catwallaun's rule in Northumbria to Oswald's reign, and he quite often dates major synods both as AD and by assorted king's reigns (In the Xth year of King Y of Kent, in the Nth year of King Z of Mercia, etc...). When you see a big synod with half a page of dates according to different kingdoms' kings, it becomes very clear how cumbersome the system must have been! No wonder Bede thought it could do with being tidied up. It must indeed have made life terribly difficult for chroniclers and historians working from regnal or consular years, which is one reason why dates that post-date Imperial Rome and pre-date Bede are probably likely to be rather approximate.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-17706707947248192712007-04-08T21:55:00.000+01:002007-04-08T21:55:00.000+01:00I wonder what sources Bede had for events well bef...I wonder what sources Bede had for events well before his own time? Presumably there was some kind of ecclesiastical record keeping, but likely sketchy in the extreme about secular events.<BR/><BR/>Wasn't Bede himself one of the major early proponents of AD dating? I wonder if one motive might have been his own difficulties in reconstructing past events. We are so accustomed to a general dating scheme that it is hard to imagine the difficulties for historians of events beyond (and even within!) living memory when no such system was in general use.<BR/><BR/>I'm thinking especially of the nightmare faced by ancient historians, when primary record keeping just went by the names of magistrates elected annually. (My understanding is that AUC dating was not at all general in ancient Rome. <BR/><BR/>Imagine trying to reconstruct events of 100 years ago, if your source materials only said "in the second year of Taft's presidency" or the like. I know the US presidents and their terms of office for the 20th century, but it breaks down in the 19th - and that's with 4-8 year terms, normally, plus I was helped in the first place by dates. It would be a maddening effort just to work out the basic chronology of events if you first had to tabulate lists of archons, consuls, etc.<BR/><BR/>In fact, the whole mental image of the distant past must have been different - and much hazier - for people with no "1588" or "1776" to provide a framework of when things happened.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-537332519726594672007-04-08T19:05:00.000+01:002007-04-08T19:05:00.000+01:00One can be grateful that they provide wiggle room....One can be grateful that they provide wiggle room. Else writing historical fiction would be half as much fun. :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-31697871845924278882007-04-08T17:49:00.000+01:002007-04-08T17:49:00.000+01:00Both modern historians and contemporaries of Herod...Both modern historians and contemporaries of Herodutus tend to disagree about certain things.Speculation by moderns authors just makes things confusing sometimes (it doesn't help they've admitted they can't fit all the pieces of the puzzle together). But at least fiction allows for some wiggle room, and it seems like you're doing a great job, so I wouldn't sweat the details too much. Happy holidays! :)Meghanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03375626649089998707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-64245757986187925452007-04-08T17:09:00.000+01:002007-04-08T17:09:00.000+01:00Well, he said he was collecting information, but w...Well, he said he was collecting information, but we can't know how good it was. He might indeed have had sources that are now lost, but I doubt any of them represented the German / British POV. :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-43529505021822078902007-04-08T10:33:00.000+01:002007-04-08T10:33:00.000+01:00Gabriele - Cassius Dio is the most detailed source...Gabriele - Cassius Dio is the most detailed source for Boudica's revolt, too. I wonder if he had access to sources that Tacitus didn't use, or if he filled in the gaps Geoffrey-of-Monmouth-style?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-40953968233856919242007-04-06T02:17:00.000+01:002007-04-06T02:17:00.000+01:00Carla, there are some more surces besdies Tacitus,...Carla, there are some more surces besdies Tacitus, but they don't clear the mess. :)<BR/><BR/>Gaius Velleus Paterculus (19 BC - 30 AD)<BR/>Has been in Germania but some years after the Varus battle. He is the one responsible for putting the blame on Varus' incapability rather than Arminius' capability. <BR/><BR/>Lucius Annaeus Florus <BR/>Lived in the times of Hadrian, about 100 years after the events.<BR/><BR/>Cassius Dio (155-229 AD)<BR/>He said he collected material for his History for 10 years, but we can't know how good his sources were. His advantage is that his 'report' of the Varus battle is the most detailed. <BR/><BR/>Sueton<BR/>Wrote about Augustus, not the German wars. He's the one to report the "Varus, give me back my legions!"Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-19488183790046825232007-04-05T18:59:00.000+01:002007-04-05T18:59:00.000+01:00Megumi - at least the seventh century is starting ...Megumi - at least the seventh century is starting to acquire a bit of information. I'm very grateful to Bede for his history :-) One of the hardest things is trying to disentangle the small amount that's actually recorded from the speculation built up around it by modern scholars, some of whom don't always clearly indicate where the fact stops and the interpretation/speculation begins. I do like authors who give references! (Which is probably why I tend to gravitate to Bede when in doubt, because he does at least sometimes give his sources).<BR/>I like the idea of Herodotus being Spartan :-) Are there contemporary sources that contradict each other, or is it mostly later authors?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-64241172859527196612007-04-04T22:57:00.000+01:002007-04-04T22:57:00.000+01:00I'd also like to add, that I can't spell.I'd also like to add, that I can't spell.Meghanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03375626649089998707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-36088590892522499752007-04-04T22:55:00.000+01:002007-04-04T22:55:00.000+01:00The more ancient the history the more problems one...The more ancient the history the more problems one runs into. It's called the Dark Ages for a reason, and it sounds like a pain to look up that time in Briton's history.<BR/><BR/> I have different books about the Greco-Persian wars and keep getting different dates for different events. It doesn't help Herodotus is rather Spartan on chronological details...Meghanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03375626649089998707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-75157680397833977192007-04-04T16:41:00.000+01:002007-04-04T16:41:00.000+01:00Gabriele - sources for Arminius and the Varus disa...Gabriele - sources for Arminius and the Varus disaster are also fairly pathcy, aren't they? Tacitus and that's about it. It's interesting trying to fit the bits and pieces together and fill in the gaps with something halfway plausible.<BR/><BR/>Bernita - The ASC entry looks like a summary of Bede, doesn't it, but with 200 slaughtered monks instead of 1200 (an easy scribal error, I should think), and the date added. I wonder where the date came from? It's not inconsistent with Bede's account since 607 could be after Augustine's death if he died shortly after consecrating Mellitus and Justus. I tend to treat the dates in the early part of the ASC with caution because it sometimes contradicts itself, e.g it has Edwin baptised by Bishop Paulinus in 601 and again in 627; seems unlikely that both can be right (!). Bede says that Paulinus arrived in Britain in 601, so maybe the ASC compiler muddled up the dates and the events - which always makes me wonder what else they muddled up or miscopied. But I agree the ASC date can't be disproved. Assorted medieval chroniclers put the battle in 616 or 617, just to complicate the picture further - but the post was already rather long!<BR/><BR/>Alianore - isn't it just?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-10043331938888185252007-04-04T15:35:00.000+01:002007-04-04T15:35:00.000+01:00Isn't this fun?I couldn't agree more!<I>Isn't this fun?</I><BR/><BR/>I couldn't agree more!Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-17744470036961888982007-04-04T13:03:00.000+01:002007-04-04T13:03:00.000+01:00My A-S Chronicles (Ingram) give the battle at 607 ...My A-S Chronicles (Ingram) give the battle at 607 - "and so was fulfilled the prophecy of Augestine" - but doesn't claim that Augustine was dead at the time!Bernitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05264585685253812090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-62256300028146924542007-04-03T21:47:00.000+01:002007-04-03T21:47:00.000+01:00Oh yes, it is fun. But writers of historical ficti...Oh yes, it is fun. But writers of historical fiction have a somewhat weird definition of 'fun' :)<BR/><BR/>I've <A HREF="http://lostfort.blogspot.com/2007/04/merging-story-and-history.html" REL="nofollow">posted</A> yesterday about some of the problems but also advantages a writer of hist fic has re. sources.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.com