tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post8480191164078148588..comments2023-11-29T07:39:34.401+00:00Comments on Carla Nayland Historical Fiction: Thatched barns and stave churches: the possibilities of Anglo-Saxon timber architectureCarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-89064555976528203622009-10-12T19:56:41.533+01:002009-10-12T19:56:41.533+01:00Tenthmedieval - Cheers, and many thanks.Tenthmedieval - Cheers, and many thanks.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-79470247676070245532009-10-10T23:55:26.440+01:002009-10-10T23:55:26.440+01:00Carla, sorry to forget to come back on this, I jus...Carla, sorry to forget to come back on this, I just meant that your point about the unknown upperworks was very sound and perfectly illustrated by the stave-church.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-58791046462587027002009-09-20T14:02:03.381+01:002009-09-20T14:02:03.381+01:00Eigon - many thanks for that, what an interesting ...Eigon - many thanks for that, what an interesting snippet of information! I didn't know that medieval timber components were that interchangeable.<br /><br />The overnight castle sounds like a direct descendant of the flat-packed Roman fort, doesn't it? A good idea never dies :-)Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-39356422725715629522009-09-16T21:46:51.557+01:002009-09-16T21:46:51.557+01:00About the pre fab cruck built cottages - some year...About the pre fab cruck built cottages - some years ago (alright, 1988) I was working on a small archaeological dig at Bangor on Dee, in a timber framed building just by the racecourse there. The owner of the house, who was doing it up, was a professional renovator of timber framed buildings, and he told us that he'd often taken beams from one cottage and slotted them into another, because they were cut to a standard size and were interchangeable.<br /><br />In this area, the Borders of Wales, there are various legends about castles appearing overnight - and that's not as daft as it sounds. With flat pack castles, and local labour digging the motte and ditch, it was possible to throw a basic castle up in two weeks - which was practically over night!Eigonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11368838188678418192noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1021209136379063152009-09-11T18:16:11.686+01:002009-09-11T18:16:11.686+01:00Steven - thank you. I'm very fortunate in the...Steven - thank you. I'm very fortunate in the commenters who come here and say interesting and intelligent things. Anyone who only reads the posts on this blog is missing half the fun!<br /><br />Annis - I know. It's almost worth writing a novel set during the Claudian invasion just to have an excuse to write that scene :-)<br /><br />Rick - Yes, the (possible) parallel with classical Chinese architecture is an interesting and potentially instructive one. I wonder if timber lends itself to particular forms, and if that's why the Borgund church has a slightly East Asian look to our eyes?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-45203352790081578962009-09-11T05:12:12.615+01:002009-09-11T05:12:12.615+01:00I admit to picturing early English as basically re...I admit to picturing early English as basically resembling very well built barns - essentially Saruman's version. As you point out, this doesn't take into account the quality of decorative work, which was probably ample and impressive.<br /><br />Oddly enough this relates to something I mentioned a couple of posts back, the lack of monumental ruins from the classical age of China. (And not just because of the East Asian flavor of the Borgund church.)<br /><br />My impression is that the classical Chinese built their major public buildings mostly of wood, or maybe brick, and they didn't leave impressive ruins. For that matter, the modern Forbidden City is certainly imposing 'in life,' but probably wouldn't make great picture postcard ruins.<br /><br />Which could be equally true of the early English.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-64411831815942155752009-09-10T20:52:45.136+01:002009-09-10T20:52:45.136+01:00I'm still chuckling at the "Far Side"...I'm still chuckling at the "Far Side" image of those perplexed Romans scratching their heads as they contemplate the pieces of their kitset fort which just won't fit together :)Annishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367569632016734415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-13244804246117710002009-09-09T15:51:39.827+01:002009-09-09T15:51:39.827+01:00Informative as always. I enjoyed reading all the c...Informative as always. I enjoyed reading all the comments too. I agree with Annis that the Norwegian church does have a Japanese flavor to it.Steven Tillhttp://steventill.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-46424137136362105412009-09-09T11:38:25.527+01:002009-09-09T11:38:25.527+01:00Annis - thanks for the link! Pity the journalist ...Annis - thanks for the link! Pity the journalist didn't provide a reference :-) People have probably been doing the same sort of thing since the year dot - and I do agree with the rest of the article about the good sense of prefabricating buildings and the high quality of Scandinavian timber houses. Somewhere in one of Adam Hart-Davis's TV programmes "What the Romans Did For Us" he said the Romans used prefabricated timber forts that arrived on site as a sort of giant flat pack. Which has obvious advantages in potentially hostile territory, though I've never quite shaken off the mental image of a couple of centurions and the army engineer standing on a windswept beach at Dover and gradually realising they've been delivered two left sides and the wrong set of Allen keys.<br /><br />Lorin - thank you.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-63720598409550430642009-09-08T01:33:10.556+01:002009-09-08T01:33:10.556+01:00Great post!Great post!Lorinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03931566230820899463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-9981058860074609142009-09-08T00:18:15.936+01:002009-09-08T00:18:15.936+01:00It seems that this clever idea wasn't confined...It seems that this clever idea wasn't confined to English medieval peasants! I had a quick hunt around earlier to see if I could find the article with the bit about the kitset cruck-fames (I couldn't), but did find this piece about equally enterprising Swiss peasants in a <a href="http://property.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/property/buying_and_selling/article670497.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1" rel="nofollow">"Timesonline" article about pre-fab housing.</a><br /><br />"In Appenzell, in what is now Switzerland, peasants used to deviously construct their own “houses” from free, local timber — then dismantle and sell them on quickly before building another one. So everybody’s house took 30 years to build but nobody got hanged — or even taxed — for the capital offence of making money, a tradition which persists in Switzerland but not in Gordon Brown’s economy."Annishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367569632016734415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-45403557074647320002009-09-07T22:53:06.149+01:002009-09-07T22:53:06.149+01:00Annis - No worries. It's such a terrific stor...Annis - No worries. It's such a terrific story I'm not surprised it stuck in your mind!Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-49043235863673965072009-09-07T02:48:06.829+01:002009-09-07T02:48:06.829+01:00Sorry, Carla, I don't remember now where I saw...Sorry, Carla, I don't remember now where I saw that bit about the sneakily profiteering peasants with their cruck frames, so can't give you the source (or proof). I read it quite some time ago, but it stuck in my mind as being quite funny and just the sort of thing that an enterprising bloke might try :)Annishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367569632016734415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-81814072116647495632009-09-06T17:53:40.846+01:002009-09-06T17:53:40.846+01:00Gabriele - ingenious :-)
Annis - yes, that was my...Gabriele - ingenious :-)<br /><br />Annis - yes, that was my first thought! Something to do with the height relative to the footprint size, perhaps? Stave churches are remarkable buildings.<br /><br />The Cowdery's Down hall must havebeen quite something if it resembled the suggested reconstructions, and if the stave churches are anything to go by it might have been more elaborate still. I wasn't surprised to see that the technique was known as far back as the seventh century; people of the past have a habit of turning out to be more ingenious and skilled than we tend to assume! Anglo-Saxon builders probably knew at least as much as we do about the practical use of wood, quite possibly more. Apparently the Old English word for "building" is "getimbre" - which shows how important a material wood was!<br /><br />What's the source for the later medieval peasants and their sidleine in pre-fab houses? It doesn't surprise me in the slightest, peasants generally being a good deal cannier at putting one over on the boss than they are given credit for, but I hadn't heard that one!Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-28841365277038998302009-09-05T06:10:52.601+01:002009-09-05T06:10:52.601+01:00Fascinating article, Carla, and I love that Norweg...Fascinating article, Carla, and I love that Norwegian church at Borgund- It's quite reminiscent of a Japanese temple in style!<br /><br />There has recently been a revival in another timber building technique dating from Saxon times;<a href="http://www.outofoblivion.org.uk/dom_arch.asp" rel="nofollow"> cruck-framing</a><br /><br />Like many others I became interested after seeing permaculturalist <a href="http://www.ben-law.co.uk" rel="nofollow">Ben Laws'</a> cruck-framed home being built as part of Channel 4's "Grand Designs" programme.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.woodlands.co.uk/blog/working-with-wood/cruck-frame-buildings" rel="nofollow"><br />Laws’ Woodlands’ blog</a> gives further info and has additional posted links with photos following the progress of a cruck-framed building from start to finish.<br /><br />From the Regia Anglorum website:<br />"The excavations of the seventh century settlements at Cowdery's Down and Charlton, both in Hampshire, uncovered evidence of 'cruck' building, a technique previously not thought to have been used until after the Norman Conquest. In this style of building the outer door frames extend into the roof and internal support for the roof timbers is provided by one or two pairs of curved timbers (crucks) set next to the door frames. This method allows for lower side walls, and thus saves on building materials. In light of these excavations, many other sites were reassessed, with the result that cruck building was identified at these too, showing that cruck building was not only known, but widespread by the seventh century."<br /><br />I was intrigued to discover that enterprising later medieval peasants would make a quick profit on the side by knocking up a cruck frame using (illegal) wood from the local lord's forest, and then smartly on-selling before being nabbed, developing the original prefab house!Annishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02367569632016734415noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-74227191673361986422009-09-04T19:49:13.399+01:002009-09-04T19:49:13.399+01:00Carla, they climb up to the beams in the middle. T...Carla, they climb up to the beams in the middle. There are some trestle tables in the hall which make it a bit easier. And no screaming women underfoot; they left (Saldís is no Bergthora). ;)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-43011053032599344962009-09-04T17:48:56.014+01:002009-09-04T17:48:56.014+01:00Gabriele - that's neat, to make the architectu...Gabriele - that's neat, to make the architecture part of a plot twist. How do Thorgil and Alistair reach to get out if the roof is high - do they break out lower down near the walls, or do they climb a beam like Kari in Njal's Saga, or what? (Don't answer if it would be a spoiler!)<br /><br />Nicola - Yes, that's an epithet to be proud of, isn't it? She must have been a remarkable woman.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-71563110130216117122009-09-03T20:47:52.725+01:002009-09-03T20:47:52.725+01:00Aud is Norwegian, so there's that...
When I s...Aud is Norwegian, so there's that...<br /><br />When I started formulating the character, I'd just encountered the story of Aud the Deepminded and was struck by the name. Wow, I thought, imagine what kind of person she must have been to be remembered as Deepminded even now.<br /><br />I plan to write about her, too, one day.Nicola Griffithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00401940329164370169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-2117736064175861632009-09-03T19:24:11.255+01:002009-09-03T19:24:11.255+01:00Nicola - Well, history is the underpinning of the ...Nicola - Well, history is the underpinning of the present, so it seemed perfectly in keeping to me :-) Lovely piece. If you don't mind my asking, does Aud have any connection with Aud the Deep-Minded, other than the name?<br /><br />Meghan - thanks, and I'm glad you found it interesting!Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-7844837843066135282009-09-03T18:55:08.768+01:002009-09-03T18:55:08.768+01:00It's frustrating when you're trying to res...It's frustrating when you're trying to research for a historical novel and there's very little detail about something as important as buildings. It looks like you've really tried your best to be objective and reach your own conclusions. This was a very informative and interesting post!Meghanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03375626649089998707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-31227024742462344132009-09-03T18:11:45.244+01:002009-09-03T18:11:45.244+01:00Thanks, Carla. Thanks, Gabriele. Even writing a ...Thanks, Carla. Thanks, Gabriele. Even writing a modern-day suspense novel, I couldn't help squeezing in some history :)Nicola Griffithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00401940329164370169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-51925162531752275452009-09-03T16:26:55.286+01:002009-09-03T16:26:55.286+01:00Nicola, a lovely piece indeed.
Carla, I imagine ...Nicola, a lovely piece indeed. <br /><br />Carla, I imagine Thorgil's hall in <i>Kings and Rebels</i> to be a pretty grand building with a steep roof that's very high in the middle - and the reason Thogil, Alastair and the serfs escape the <i>innibränna</i> by going through the roof, something the bad guys didn't expect. Half of them are on the wrong side of the building, the straw is speread too thin so the fire catches slowly, and Illugi doesn't want to risk a fight with either Thorgil or Alastair and flees. Though Thorgil is severely wounded and most of the serfs die - can't make it too easy, lol.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-13408184347159558982009-09-03T15:55:33.945+01:002009-09-03T15:55:33.945+01:00Tenthmedieval - in what sense?
Nicola - Many than...Tenthmedieval - in what sense?<br /><br />Nicola - Many thanks for the link - what a lovely piece of writing.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-28717408092074634102009-09-03T02:09:32.251+01:002009-09-03T02:09:32.251+01:00I agree completely.
I've no idea if you or yo...I agree completely.<br /><br />I've no idea if you or your readers would be interested, but <a href="http://www.nicolagriffith.com/stavechurch.doc" rel="nofollow">here's an except</a> from one of my novels, published in 1998, about the appearance today and building a thousand years ago (okay, not quite that long, but close) of a stave church in Norway. (Yes, I did the research.) It's short, about 1,000 words.Nicola Griffithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00401940329164370169noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-15993149036677043192009-09-02T10:14:56.275+01:002009-09-02T10:14:56.275+01:00A hit, madam, a palpable hit.A hit, madam, a palpable hit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com