tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post7418526878300196302..comments2023-11-29T07:39:34.401+00:00Comments on Carla Nayland Historical Fiction: Birdoswald Roman Fort: post-Roman activity on the siteCarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-9036307886530247802011-06-16T13:45:49.804+01:002011-06-16T13:45:49.804+01:00The battle of Arthuret as entered in Annales Cambr...The battle of Arthuret as entered in Annales Cambriae was well after 520 AD (see my post on the battle <a href="http://carlanayland.blogspot.com/2010/03/battle-of-arfderydd-or-arthuret.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>). The possibility of a connection is mainly derived from the traditional site of the battle being in roughly the same area, although the site of the battle is not certain. If there is a direct connection between Birdoswald's post-Roman occupants and Arthuret, it would tend to imply occupation at Birdoswald extending beyond 520 AD, either in the timber halls on the north granary or elsewhere on the site. Which is possible, if the timber halls had a longer lifespan than the 50-year guesstimate that underlies the 520 AD date, or if they were replaced with another building that hasn't been identified in excavation. But far from certain! (like almost everything else in this period). You can fit the pieces together in numerous ways.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-23763432708361967672011-06-16T10:33:23.936+01:002011-06-16T10:33:23.936+01:00Thanks for the link Carla. Great stuff.
Interesti...Thanks for the link Carla. Great stuff.<br /><br />Interesting that you think there might be a link with Arthuret. I'm also interested in Birdoswald (Banna) for my historical Arthur studies and screenplay (see blogs at my WordPress). That possible date of 520 is interesting, especially with some identifying Camboglanna as Arthur's last battle of Camlann around the this time. All just theories of course, an Arthur of Badon may or may not have existed, but very interesting never-the-less.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-72960284586195880502011-06-15T15:44:47.858+01:002011-06-15T15:44:47.858+01:00Badonicus - Hello and welcome. The date of 520 AD...Badonicus - Hello and welcome. The date of 520 AD is the excavator Tony Willmott's estimate. There is very little hard dating evidence, so the dating is based on a few late Roman coins together with guesstimates of a plausible lifespan for the two phases of timber halls. More details in my post about dating the Birdoswald halls <a href="http://carlanayland.blogspot.com/2010/03/birdoswald-roman-fort-dating-post-roman.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. The timber halls could have gone out of use before 520, or could have lasted longer (perhaps considerably longer). There's a wide margin of possibility around the 520 AD date.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-28722130593703287292011-06-15T12:35:06.702+01:002011-06-15T12:35:06.702+01:00Am I right in saying that the post-Roman building ...Am I right in saying that the post-Roman building was dated to be in existence until around 520AD?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-38509355124338029662010-02-26T17:10:21.719+00:002010-02-26T17:10:21.719+00:00Gabriele - Cheers, I've added a link.
Hank, C...Gabriele - Cheers, I've added a link.<br /><br />Hank, Constance - Google Maps' satellite images can be very useful.<br /><br />Rick - quite; if the walls are still sound you might well leave them alone as long as they weren't actually dangerous and if you didn't need the building materials for something else. Even the shell of a roofless building might be useful as a sort of walled courtyard, maybe for animals or for storing the kind of things you can keep under tarpaulins. And there's always the 'when resources permit' wish-list, not to mention that you might have more urgent things to do than demolition, which takes a fair amount of manpower to do safely. <br /><br />There's also the possibility of a change of policy, either in response to external events or internal changes of priority. If the fort was neglected as a low priority or even outright abandoned for a while, then a change of policy brought in a new commander and/or a different garrison with instructions to do the best they can with whatever's left on the ground, that could easily produce a military base operating out of a half-ruined fort, on the logic that it was easier than operating out of no fort at all or building a new one.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-85197021173831068232010-02-26T16:44:03.266+00:002010-02-26T16:44:03.266+00:00Forgot to add, thanks to Gabriele for the pix!Forgot to add, thanks to Gabriele for the pix!Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-35827227520000826172010-02-26T16:43:45.868+00:002010-02-26T16:43:45.868+00:00have of a military base functioning out of a half-...<i>have of a military base functioning out of a half-ruined fort. I mean, what would that do for morale? Any commander worth their salt would have fallen-in buildings demolished</i><br /><br />There are bases near me with WW II era buildings and other facilities in various states of abandonment, and they are basically just kept somewhat tidy. <br /><br />If a roof collapsed, a commander might not want to pull down the walls; at some indefinite future date there might be means to restore it to use.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-62053064430189518892010-02-24T13:52:44.253+00:002010-02-24T13:52:44.253+00:00hank - cool, thanks! :)hank - cool, thanks! :)Constance Brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964121072645959593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-13247679681236900222010-02-24T03:46:48.957+00:002010-02-24T03:46:48.957+00:00Constance
For the lay of the land try clicking o...Constance<br /><br />For the lay of the land try clicking on the Google Map link at the bottom of the main post.hank_F_Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09851295792702162861noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-51442634844972388622010-02-23T18:45:45.628+00:002010-02-23T18:45:45.628+00:00Got some photos up here.Got some photos up <a href="http://lostfort.blogspot.com/2010/02/birdoswald-timber-halls.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-86960230862428395452010-02-23T15:24:26.318+00:002010-02-23T15:24:26.318+00:00Tenthmedieval - I should have said 'after 350&...Tenthmedieval - I should have said 'after 350', rather than 'around 350'. The roof collapse must have been after the coin was manufactured, but <i>how much</i> after is a different question. It's possible that the wear patterns on the coins may give an idea of how long they had been in circulation, though that would be subject to variations; a coin that spent most of its life in a strong box could remain apparently unworn for long periods after issue, whereas one that was in constant market exchange and/or jingling in a pocket with lots of other coins would get worn relatively quickly.<br /><br />It's possible that the north granary was deliberately demolished, since it seems to have been used subsequently as a rubbish dump. Another possibility may be that the fort was temporarily unoccupied or reduced to a skeleton garrison for a short period, during which the granary collapsed, and when it was later reoccupied the commander just used the buildings that were still habitable and ignored the ones that weren't (perhaps treating them as a convenient quarry, or perhaps intending to get round to them one day). There were plenty of alarums and crises in Late Roman Britain that could conceivably have resulted in some or all of a fort garrison leaving their base, temporarily or permanently. One can imagine a smaller unit than the fort had been originally designed for, either the remnants of the original garrison after part had been borrowed for duty elsewhere, or a later replacement, sort of making camp within the defences. I don't think archaeology would necessarily be able to detect a short spell of abandonment (but don't quote me on that). One could construct a scenario of a commander who could no longer call on the resources of the Roman Army and reckoned his men's morale would benefit more from fixing up the south granary as a hall, repairing the defences and organising reliable local food supplies, than from clearing derelict buildings. The whole sequence could have happened later than the late fourth century, perhaps much later, if the coins had been around for a while after their issue dates. I'll have more to say on the dating in a later post; it wouldn't all fit in this one.<br /><br />Constance - sometimes the land has changed quite a bit in the interim, due to drainage or changes in land use or rivers moving their courses etc, and often there's only a few earthworks or grassy humps and bumps visible of the buildings. Reconstruction drawings in books can be very helpful in trying to imagine what the buildings might have looked like in their time.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-15783995730591388032010-02-22T14:21:59.789+00:002010-02-22T14:21:59.789+00:00I have a few Roman fort books, but wish I could se...I have a few Roman fort books, but wish I could see the lay of the land and outlines of buildings. Much easier to visualize what you're writing/drawing about that way. I'm jealous, all I have is a cavalry fort from the 1860's to look at.Constance Brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964121072645959593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-4731963877506284582010-02-22T11:20:42.083+00:002010-02-22T11:20:42.083+00:00The stone roof of the north granary collapsed in a...<i>The stone roof of the north granary collapsed in around 350, dated by a coin of 350-353 found beneath the drifts of fallen roof tile.</i><br /><br />Aggh, cue numismatic paroxsyms... We've got a site chronology here which relies on gaps between issue dates of coins of thirty years, but late Roman bronze sometimes circulated for three times that, the early coins could easily have been in use for longer than that whole sequence. That said, it's significant that new coins were still reaching the area as late as 380, but the subsequent ruin and demolition could be all over the place chronologically compared to this scheme. That might help deal with the idea we otherwise seem to have of a military base functioning out of a half-ruined fort. I mean, what would that do for morale? Any commander worth their salt would have fallen-in buildings demolished, not left looking as if there was nothing worth defending, surely. It seems awkward to me, anyway.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-47422827717403827942010-02-21T20:40:42.358+00:002010-02-21T20:40:42.358+00:00Gabriele - If you post some photos of Birdoswald, ...Gabriele - If you post some photos of Birdoswald, let me know and I'll link to the post.<br /><br />Rick - Seamless transition, so late Roman to post-Roman without a break to speak of. More information on the dating in the next post.<br /><br />Commanders were allowed to have their families with them from the beginning - see the assorted Vindolanda Letters from the commander's wife inviting her friend (wife of the commander down the road) to her birthday party etc. Serving soldiers were officially allowed to marry in the Late Empire (late third century or so? Don't quote me on that). One theory about why several fort vici seem to go out of use in the third/fourth century is that the civilians moved into the forts. So the presence of the leader's wife or girlfriend wasn't necessarily against Procedures; all that probably changed was the title, if people started calling her queen instead of 'domina'.<br /><br />The transition scenario you mention is the most likely explanation of the evidence - the commander's house and the headquarters building fall into ruin or become impractical to maintain, so the current commander starts using the south granary to replace both functions, then when the south granary falls down he or his successor puts up a timber hall on the site of the north granary. This might have started happening even before orders stopped coming from Higher Up.<br /><br />I missed copying the Camboglanna footnote over when I posted the text, so I've now added it. Thanks for pointing out the omission!<br /><br />Kathryn - sounds like fairly normal weather for the western Pennines. You can see why they needed an indoor exercise hall :-)Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-2740362562489371052010-02-21T08:38:35.751+00:002010-02-21T08:38:35.751+00:00“Lo, behold the Birdoswald of Asia Minor!” *Grin*...“Lo, behold the Birdoswald of Asia Minor!” *Grin* :-)<br /><br />Thanks for this post! It's a few years now since I visited Birdoswald, and needless to say, it was pouring down at the time. :)Kathryn Warnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00397714441908100576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-21815914166668454852010-02-21T03:56:52.967+00:002010-02-21T03:56:52.967+00:00Just how far post-Roman? Presumably not terribly m...Just how far post-Roman? Presumably not terribly much later. All of this lends itself to the mental picture of some auxiliary commander taking charge in his own name after orders no longer come from Higher Up. <br /><br />And then his wife or girlfriend convinces him to ignore Procedures and set up housekeeping on post as his de facto queen. Sic transit gloria!<br /><br /><br />You put an asterisk after Camboglanna as if you intended a note, so I'll fill it in: 'Camboglanna' is apparently the original form of Camlann, as in Arthur's final disastrous battle. But an odd mistake to get into the Notitia Dignitatum!Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-24617703608870763942010-02-19T22:30:27.121+00:002010-02-19T22:30:27.121+00:00I thought I had put up a photo of the timber posts...I thought I had put up a photo of the timber posts that mark the second hall in Birdoswald, but it turns out I didn't. I used the photo only in the lecture about the Hadrian's Wall and Limes Germanicus I held at the university last summer. <br /><br />Gotta dig that one up.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.com