tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post7110338687069825508..comments2023-11-29T07:39:34.401+00:00Comments on Carla Nayland Historical Fiction: Human sacrifice in Anglo-Saxon EnglandCarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-90198548648508067052008-01-24T11:18:00.000+00:002008-01-24T11:18:00.000+00:00Gabriele - wow, that's impressive! I remember rea...Gabriele - wow, that's impressive! I remember reading Nigel Tranter's <I>Macbeth the King</I> when we did <I>Macbeth</I> at school, but I think that was coincidence more than research :-)<BR/><BR/>Hazel-rah - I shall have to look out for <I>The 13th Warrior</I> and give it a try.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-40501621252395038492008-01-23T11:29:00.000+00:002008-01-23T11:29:00.000+00:00Ah.. no wonder Iphigenia has such resonances for y...Ah.. no wonder Iphigenia has such resonances for you, Gabriele.<BR/>I noticed on your profile that The 13th Warrior is one of your favourite films....Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15489091434613178568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-83740916178483888532008-01-22T16:23:00.000+00:002008-01-22T16:23:00.000+00:00Hazel, I played Goethe's Iphigenia with the school...Hazel, I played Goethe's Iphigenia with the school threatre group, and read the older versions just for fun. It also helped to give the character a bit more bite - in Goethe's play everyone is so damn nice. But I could use the underlying current from Euripides and make her more defiant in tone, if not in words.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-62990544940386365972008-01-22T12:12:00.000+00:002008-01-22T12:12:00.000+00:00Gabriele - Thanks! I vote for Euripies' version :...Gabriele - Thanks! I vote for Euripies' version :-)<BR/><BR/>Georgie Lee - Lindow Man is one of the bog bodies Elizabeth referred to in the first comment. I may put together a post on them, as they provide evidence for the sort of rite(s) that might have been employed.<BR/><BR/>Hazel-rah - I'm very fortunate that clever and erudite people come here to comment :-) If you'd like to know more about Troy and its aftermath, you might like to try the 1998 BBC radio dramatisation "Troy", which by great good fortune happens to be being repeated on BBC Radio 7 right now. It covers much more than Homer, so I presume it draws on the other Greek writers who told stories of the Trojan War. It's three 90-minute plays, and is broadcast on successive Sundays at 10 am (repeated 8 pm the same day), or each programme is available over the net for seven days after broadcast via <A HREF="http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbc7/programmes/" REL="nofollow">Listen Again</A>. Scroll down the page to "T" and you'll see it. It's very straight and well acted, no gimmicks. (A few weeks ago they had a comedy spoof, <I>Operation Lightning Pegasus</I>, which is a scream but which has, sadly, expired from the page now).Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1726192297281021492008-01-22T09:15:00.000+00:002008-01-22T09:15:00.000+00:00Everyone, your knowledge of Iphigenia and co. is a...Everyone, your knowledge of Iphigenia and co. is amazing. All I could remember was that some of Homer's lads were trying to get the wind to blow the right way.Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15489091434613178568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-19074321773299095232008-01-21T19:58:00.000+00:002008-01-21T19:58:00.000+00:00Interesting post. I've read a little about the Lin...Interesting post. I've read a little about the Lindow Man. There is so much we don't know about the period and it will be interesting to see what else the experts discover.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12019450793013285292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-42273018218864275022008-01-21T19:23:00.000+00:002008-01-21T19:23:00.000+00:00Hehe, I guessed you would. :)In the Euripies versi...Hehe, I guessed you would. :)<BR/><BR/>In the Euripies version, Iphigenie snatches the statue of Artemis and escapes with the two men. There had been a prophecy that Orestes would be healed if the statue came back to Greece. Thoas can only shout curses after the disappearing ship. <BR/><BR/>In the 18th century version by the German writer Goethe, Iphigenie talks Thoas into letting them go.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-25440294699940642182008-01-21T19:05:00.000+00:002008-01-21T19:05:00.000+00:00Gabriele - Sure, why not?Highly Eccentric - Hello ...Gabriele - Sure, why not?<BR/><BR/>Highly Eccentric - Hello and welcome, and I'm honoured to be included in the carnival.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-47239874438495965062008-01-21T01:55:00.000+00:002008-01-21T01:55:00.000+00:00Just a quick note to let you know that i linked to...Just a quick note to let you know that i linked to this post in the latest carnivalesque:<BR/>http://highlyeccentric.livejournal.com/242435.htmlhighlyeccentrichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14049193555531624608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-8243769006000862602008-01-20T20:42:00.000+00:002008-01-20T20:42:00.000+00:00Yes, Iphigenia got spirited away to the Crimean by...Yes, Iphigenia got spirited away to the Crimean by Artemis where she serves as priestess, supposed to sacrify Greek captives. She manages to wiggle out of the job for ten years, but then the King, one Thoas, insists she finally sacrifies the new guys caught that morning. Of course, it's Orestes and Pylades, still running away from those furies. <BR/><BR/>You want to know how it ends? :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-23202670009413595032008-01-20T13:55:00.000+00:002008-01-20T13:55:00.000+00:00Elizabeth - cheers, and I'll be interested in thei...Elizabeth - cheers, and I'll be interested in their views.<BR/><BR/>Hazel-rah - "I'm sure they were a quiet family and the neighbours were all shocked." Yes, absolutely, and gave interviews to the TV crews saying how you'd never have thought it of them :-) There seem to be several variants of the story with different motivations, but almost nobody comes out of it very well. Agamemnon and Clytemnestra remind me of Churchill's quote, "it was most provident that they married each other, thereby making two people miserable and not four". Orestes seems to me to have got an undeservedly short straw.<BR/><BR/>Gabriele - Did Iphigenia survive after all? Poor Orestes - he's caught in a loyalty conflict with no way out. I had an idea that Athena sorted out some of the mess by inventing trial by law (cannot remember the details, but I think the idea was that some external jury would decide on Orestes' sentence). Are the Erynnies related to the Furies?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-10459996322902743732008-01-20T06:33:00.000+00:002008-01-20T06:33:00.000+00:00Clytemnestra may have argued about Iphigenia and C...Clytemnestra may have argued about Iphigenia and Cassandra, but she had an affair with Aigisthos which didn't really help her credibility. :)<BR/><BR/>Yep, Orestes kills his mom whereof he is possessed by the Erynnies, som nasty, screaming revenge godlet-esses, and runs around half mad, accompanied by his friend - and I suspect, lover - Pylades. In the end they find Iphigenia as priestess in some non-Hellenic place and free her. Orestes is healed and Iphigenia marries Pylades and everyone lives happily ever after.<BR/><BR/>Except Odysseus. :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-90015810628841164702008-01-20T04:48:00.000+00:002008-01-20T04:48:00.000+00:00bI'm not sure what spin Homer puts on it, I don't ...bI'm not sure what spin Homer puts on it, I don't know his writings that well, but Clytemnestra's murder of Agamemnon is also ascribed in part to jealousy over the latter bringing home Cassandra as a concubine. Aeschylus differs to Homer in how she is portrayed. She in turn is killed by her son Orestes, in revenge for Agamemnon's death.<BR/>I'm sure they were a quiet family and the neighbours were all shocked.Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15489091434613178568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-41798638202242220582008-01-19T18:29:00.000+00:002008-01-19T18:29:00.000+00:00Carla, I've posted to the Regia list. Their param...Carla, I've posted to the Regia list. Their parameters are indeed later, but as with many re-enactment societies, the members tend to have earlier and later interests and I know there is a strong interest in the group concerning the earlier Anglo Saxons.Elizabeth Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-53019963049976028452008-01-19T16:19:00.000+00:002008-01-19T16:19:00.000+00:00Gabriele - I wonder if there was a hard-and-fast d...Gabriele - I wonder if there was a hard-and-fast difference, or if the same death could be for both reasons? Yes, there's a scene like that somewhere in Cornwell's Arthur series, but I can't remember if it's Nimue doing the sacrificing or someone else. With the varus battle you're completely in the clear because it's so near in time to Tacitus' account.<BR/><BR/>Meghan/Gabriele - and don't even ask what they put in the black pudding :-) Meghan - what's the source of the tradition, and was it supposed to be the blood of their own dead or the enemy dead?<BR/><BR/>Hazel-rah - Iphigenia daughter of Agamemnon, sacrificed at Aulis for a favourable wind so that the ships could get to Troy. Interesting theory about the transfer of guilt to the enemy. I tended to think of it as demonstrating the King's commitment to the war. Wasn't the daughter's death supposed to be the reason Clytemnestra murdered Agamemnon when he came home?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-83339433111558886012008-01-19T09:11:00.000+00:002008-01-19T09:11:00.000+00:00Carla, to answer your question: Both are a sort of...Carla, to answer your question: Both are a sort of retelling of Beowulf but with ibn Fadlan as a witness to the events. <BR/>The implication is that the 'Wendol', who are the Eaters, might have been a branch of human evolution who lived on way past their time in remote places. <BR/><BR/>One reads of human sacrifice in the story of the Trojan War. In that it was - as I recall - to get the favour of the gods in getting the wind to blow a particular way, or something. In that a King's daughter is sacrificed.. and it seems a rather drastic measure, really, in context. <BR/>It has been theorised that these kinds of non-prejudiced sacrifices (i.e. not of prisoners or slaves) was a way of motivating the troops. In crass terms: "look lads....she has died for the cause, so you blokes had better deliver a victory", but it's more than that.... In effect, the men psychologically transfer the guilt to the enemy, and are thus prepared to go all the way for their tribe.<BR/><BR/>It's an extreme point, but one can imagine that witnessing the ritual death of the girl - who is desirable on both a social and sexual level - would send a platoon of free citizen men - especially if they are young and impressionable - into a virtual frenzy. They might see that girl everytime they go to kill someone. In modern terms... 'instant serial killers'.<BR/><BR/>If that sounds far-fetched, we should pause to think that Homer ascribes the cause of the entire war to the infidelity of a single woman of status. I doubt very much that was the true and sole basis of whatever conflict the Trojan War is based on, but the symbolism is there.Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15489091434613178568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-63687313566791798692008-01-18T23:48:00.000+00:002008-01-18T23:48:00.000+00:00That makes Haggis sound like French cuisine. :)That makes Haggis sound like French cuisine. :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-43226826563031761732008-01-18T22:37:00.000+00:002008-01-18T22:37:00.000+00:00I have a lot of Scottish ancestory. Apparently the...I have a lot of Scottish ancestory. Apparently the Highlanders drank the blood of their dead. :/Meghanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03375626649089998707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-38663711940639002842008-01-18T19:06:00.000+00:002008-01-18T19:06:00.000+00:00Some of the German bog bodies that were said to ha...Some of the German bog bodies that were said to have been punished for adultery have now been rehabilitated. They were more likely sacrifical victims. <BR/><BR/>Isn't there a scene in Cornwell's <I>Warlord</I> where Nimue sacrifies a Saxon captive, or was that another Arthurian novel? I've read too many of those. ;)<BR/><BR/>I'm having some fun with human sacrifices in both <I>A Land Unconquered</I> (the captured Roman officers were sacrified after the Varus battle) and <I>Eagle of the Sea</I>.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1383797595082491322008-01-18T17:36:00.000+00:002008-01-18T17:36:00.000+00:00Elizabeth - I shall be interested to hear what the...Elizabeth - I shall be interested to hear what they think! Regia is generally more interested in the later period, isn't it, well after the conversion to Christianity?<BR/><BR/>The bog bodies are very likely related to the rituals described by Tacitus. Tacitus even says somewhere that the German tribes punished crimes that were considered shameful, such as adultery, by drowning the guilty person in a bog - which may be another example of the rather fluid line between sacrificial and judicial killing. Most of the bog bodies are dated to the Iron Age or the first century or two AD, so they are a bit earlier than the period associated with the English settlement in Britain. They're particularly interesting for the rites employed, and I may do a specific post on that at some point.<BR/><BR/>Hazel-rah - Many thanks - I knew <I>Eaters of the Dead</I> was based on ibn Fadlan's account, but didn't know how closely. I have to admit the title has always tended to put me off! I must give it a go sometime. I had a vague idea the film <I>The 13th Warrior</I> was based loosely on <I>Beowulf</I>. Have I got that completely wrong?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-28049389463026524662008-01-18T08:34:00.000+00:002008-01-18T08:34:00.000+00:00As you might be aware...Ahmad ibn Fadlan's manuscr...As you might be aware...<BR/>Ahmad ibn Fadlan's manuscript was the basis of Michael Crichton's "Eaters of the Dead", which is nonetheless mostly a work of the imagination in which Fadlan (ibn Fadlan actually means "son of Fadlan") is the in-story narrator.<BR/>The book was was adapted to film as "The 13th Warrior". <BR/>The sacrifice scene is in the film too, although not shown precisely as Fadlan describes it.<BR/><BR/>The book is worth a read and the film is (in my opinion) highly underrated, despite its historical and other contradictions.Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15489091434613178568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-71058538780706827752008-01-17T22:51:00.000+00:002008-01-17T22:51:00.000+00:00Fascinating post Carla, and a bit creepy! I will f...Fascinating post Carla, and a bit creepy! I will forward your blog url to my re-enactor friends who will probably be very interested.<BR/>I wonder if the finds of bog bodies in Northern Europe are in any way related to these 'sacrifices' you mention here.Elizabeth Chadwickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16911841862257909703noreply@blogger.com