tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post6367191673049566957..comments2023-11-29T07:39:34.401+00:00Comments on Carla Nayland Historical Fiction: Early medieval armies: campaigning rangeCarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-85127472662415481382010-09-02T18:20:50.628+01:002010-09-02T18:20:50.628+01:00Possibly successful in the Calgacus/Tacitus sense,...Possibly successful in the Calgacus/Tacitus sense, "they make a wasteland and call it peace". Bede certainly regarded it as a deeply traumatic event, although the usual caveat applies that we may only have a partial picture. As Catwallaun was killed at the end of his year of occupation, and the rule of Gwynedd then passed (temporarily) to a king who was not from his dynasty, it was arguably a mixed (!) success even for him.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-61432231250817227042010-09-02T16:25:31.736+01:002010-09-02T16:25:31.736+01:00'ruled not like a victorious king but like a s...'ruled not like a victorious king but like a savage tyrant'<br /><br />But a few centuries we have the Harrying of the North, that we do actually have a written record of, and that proved very successful.<br /><br />Considering Cadwallon was occupying Lloegyr he may have considered the current occupants as temporary.<br /><br />Thanks again Carla for a very stimulating and well written article and thanks to to all the posters for additional deep thought.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16324683738851619797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-65003656837482153762010-08-10T16:47:06.317+01:002010-08-10T16:47:06.317+01:00Constance - glad you found it interesting. Yes, t...Constance - glad you found it interesting. Yes, the internal combustion engine and the jet engine made a big difference in perception of distance :-) Perception of distance also tends to vary with factors such as population density and distance between settlements, too - there's an apocryphal story that when Marks and Spencer opened their first store in Inverness (Scottish Highlands) its catchment area turned out to be many times greater than they expected, because people in the Highlands were used to travelling long distances.<br /><br />Rick - Maybe; who's to say what was expected?<br /><br />Anonymous - good luck with your college assignment. Remember to cite your sources :-)Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-50236302121210226792010-08-10T11:20:37.514+01:002010-08-10T11:20:37.514+01:00Genial brief and this post helped me alot in my co...Genial brief and this post helped me alot in my college assignement. Thank you seeking your information.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-89077552965320776512010-08-10T03:04:19.511+01:002010-08-10T03:04:19.511+01:00Perhaps Catwallaun thought he would be greeted wit...Perhaps Catwallaun thought he would be greeted with flowers, but things didn't work out that way.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-8994659474311270692010-08-09T00:51:07.881+01:002010-08-09T00:51:07.881+01:00A neat read on the status of battles and battle re...A neat read on the status of battles and battle ready troops for the time. Thanks!<br /><br />It's amazing I can travel 140 miles for dinner - one way- and think nothing of it. A lot different if I was walking!Constance Brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964121072645959593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-57743921959818632882010-08-06T19:24:59.742+01:002010-08-06T19:24:59.742+01:00Quite. Bede's comment is interesting in that ...Quite. Bede's comment is interesting in that it implies that he thought there was a right and a wrong way to rule a territory after you'd conquered it by defeating and killing the previous incumbent.<br /><br />Catwallaun's campaign in Northumbria was around 633-634, just less than a century before Bede was writing in 731. Bede was born in 670, so when he was a child or a young man there would have been people around who could remember Catwallaun's campaign and could give him eyewitness accounts. <br /><br />Hard to say whether Catwallaun was intent on short-term plunder or long-term annexation. Staying around for a full year suggests either a very thorough plundering or some sort of long-term intent. If the story about Cunedda, who was Catwallaun's (legendary?) ancestor, having originally come from what's now north-east England are correct - or if Catwallaun believed it - he may have considered that he was engaged in some sort of reconquista of ancestral family territory.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-20957418945520820472010-08-06T18:08:28.968+01:002010-08-06T18:08:28.968+01:00'ruled not like a victorious king but like a s...<i>'ruled not like a victorious king but like a savage tyrant'</i><br /><br />Which would make brutal sense for a warlord who does not intend to build a long term power base in the region, but simply squeeze the most out of it in the relatively short term.<br /><br />Though, as you suggest, Bede may be partisan. Perhaps Catwallaun intended permanent annexation, and evicted landholders in favor of his own followers or supporters. If those he evicted were Bede's source, they obviously had nothing good to say about Catwallaun.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-19842022971119702932010-08-06T11:21:41.557+01:002010-08-06T11:21:41.557+01:00Rick - yes, that's how I see them. They indic...Rick - yes, that's how I see them. They indicate what was possible, but don't necessarily say how probable it was.<br /><br />There's limited evidence for mounted warbands (discussed here some time ago), which would certainly have improved long range mobility. An analogy could be drawn with the Vikings of Alfred the Great's time, who used horses for mobility but fought on foot. Shipping may have been used for long distance transport as well, which increases mobility although only within the constraints imposed by navigable waterways.<br /><br />There's a trade-off between the ease of feeding a small force and its potential vulnerability should the locals decide to resist en masse. (Some of the disastrous long-distance forays, such as Ecgfrith at Nechtansmere, may have got on the wrong side of such a trade-off). Some sort of logistics and supply mechanism existed, as it gets a brief mention in one of Bede's passing remarks. I'll pick this up in a later post. <br /><br />Catwallaun's year in Northumbria seems to have been a case of no effective opposition left, so he was effectively the ruler while it lasted. Bede says he 'ruled not like a victorious king but like a savage tyrant'. Leaving aside Bede's value judgement, which may be partisan, that indicates that Cadwallon was effective boss. He evidently did seize at least one stronghold, as Bede mentions an ineffectual attempt to besiege him in one (unfortunately, as usual, we don't know the location).Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-36743060694849119872010-08-05T02:30:18.860+01:002010-08-05T02:30:18.860+01:00The battles of note may not be typical, but they d...The battles of note may not be typical, but they do indicate military capabilities. <br /><br />Small armies of elite troops might be more mobile than larger armies, because they could live off the land more readily. Horse mobility would also increase range, even if they fought on foot.<br /><br />But sustaining an army on distant ground for a year is a whole 'nother matter. I think they'd either need local allies to supply them, or seize some stronghold as a base. (Ambiguous intermediate cases can be imagined.)Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-56662463081264599152010-08-04T17:42:13.965+01:002010-08-04T17:42:13.965+01:00Gabriele - ah, but on the other hand you then have...Gabriele - ah, but on the other hand you then have the freedom to invent the story of Marcus Vinicius and the immense battle against the Germans. Silver linings, and all that :-)Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-74882498805639739322010-08-04T16:17:32.608+01:002010-08-04T16:17:32.608+01:00Assassination attempts and battles make for good s...Assassination attempts and battles make for good stories, though. :)<br /><br />It's a pity the chroniclers always picked what they thought was important. In my case, it's the Imperial family - as soon as any of its members is involved in a war it gets a detailed treatment (Germanicus' campaigns) but if there's just some legate, we have to do with one sentence: Marcus Vinicius fought an <i>immensum bellum</i> against the Germans. Argh.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-48280468895703994572010-08-04T10:14:11.956+01:002010-08-04T10:14:11.956+01:00Indeed. Pity we don't have things like admini...Indeed. Pity we don't have things like administrative records that might give an idea of the type and frequency of warfare that was considered routine. As it is I don't think we can really say whether these long-distance campaigns were exceptional, regular-but-uncommon, or routine, although they were clearly possible. <br /><br />Bede refers to the West Saxon assassination attempt as if it were carried out by a single individual, so at most it was presumably a very small group - and whether any of them survived to go home at all must be somewhat doubtful! Bede doesn't say where the campaign took place, but the implication from his account seems to be that it was at least partly outside Northumbrian territory. He says things like "...marched against the West Saxons..." and "Returning home after the victory...", both of which imply a journey away from Northumbria. How far away is anyone's guess. As so often, the interpretations aren't mutually incompatible; a battle in Derbyshire could have been part of a larger campaign that reached further afield into West Saxon territory. A battle in Derbyshire could be logically explained if the West Saxon king heard his assassination attempt had failed, feared the expected vengeance, and marched north to try and get his retaliation in first before Eadwine had recovered. So I don't think a battle in Derbyshire as part of that campaign is necessarily impossible. I just wouldn't count the legend about the place names as evidence in support!<br />One of the place names in question was still in its earlier form, which doesn't support the pun, in the late 13th century according to my notes from the English Place-Name Society's publication. So logically the pun came into existence some time after then. It's possible that there was already a tradition about a battle in existence and the place names just got attached to the story at a later date, and even that the existence of the story about a battle contributed to the development of the place names in their modern forms. It's also possible that the place names came into existence independently and then someone later made up a story about a battle to explain them. Hard to say which came first!Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-50697915394576482252010-08-03T21:32:40.263+01:002010-08-03T21:32:40.263+01:00I would agree with your opinion that we have a bia...I would agree with your opinion that we have a biased sample. The battles which were recorded would tend to be those involving a major campaign, not skirmishes when one kingdom tried to invade a neighbour but were rebuffed just over the border, probably a regular event. <br />I also doubt the legend of Eadwine's attack on the West Saxons taking place in Derbyshire. Eadwine, not surprisingly, waited for his revenge until he was physically recovered from the assassination attempt, and by then the West Saxons would have gone home (there is no record of a Cadwallon-style occupation). The battle(s) would be within Wessex or, if they were warned of his approach, maybe just outside. A pun in modern English would tend to make me more sceptical - when would that have been applied as a mnemonic?Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02204909202506240971noreply@blogger.com