tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post4231453278260965725..comments2023-11-29T07:39:34.401+00:00Comments on Carla Nayland Historical Fiction: The Reign of Arthur: From History to Legend, by Christopher Gidlow. Book reviewCarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-33420356417582305222007-01-19T18:55:00.000+00:002007-01-19T18:55:00.000+00:00Thanks for the link Alex - that is one impressive ...Thanks for the link Alex - that is one impressive sword!Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-27604198421003555702007-01-19T10:25:00.000+00:002007-01-19T10:25:00.000+00:00The Migration Period sword is made by Tim Noyes: h...The Migration Period sword is made by Tim Noyes: http://tinyurl.com/ytn9rn I'm interested in number 4.Alex Bordessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360540101147770320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-55395280858750870742007-01-19T09:05:00.000+00:002007-01-19T09:05:00.000+00:00Gidlow hasn't really got a theory, in the usual se...Gidlow hasn't really got a theory, in the usual sense. (Which is also very refreshing). He's chiefly arguing that a British military leader called Arthur did exist around the turn of the 5th/6th centuries, and isn't much bothered about going further than that.<br />Wow - a Migration Period sword! Who makes it?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-31680146895276453112007-01-18T22:34:00.000+00:002007-01-18T22:34:00.000+00:00It's also known as 'Arthur in my back garden syndr...It's also known as 'Arthur in my back garden syndrome' by (often Welsh) archaeologists who have to handle people who think they've found some Arthurian nick-nack or another in the area. I'd still be interested in this era if Arthur wasn't a part of it, and I don't find him appealing in the least (rant, rant - nurse! the screens!) But we are of accord - I don't mind the theories. It's when they just *know* theirs is the right one, I mentally walk away. I still have check out the theories just in case someone actually produces something useful (hence stockpiling the Gidlow).<br /><br />It was just the belt buckle from Sutton Hoo, and I think it was in bronze, but it was still eye-crossingly expensive. I'd love one of those little blue glass cups, but no does a replica - yet ... I've sourced a really nice replica Migration Period sword, which would cover Christmas and Birthday presents for a year or two, I suspect. I'm a sucker for the Anglo-Saxon bling :-)Alex Bordessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360540101147770320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-21759245070220074892007-01-18T16:59:00.000+00:002007-01-18T16:59:00.000+00:00Alex - Prittlewell, that's it. I couldn't think o...Alex - Prittlewell, that's it. I couldn't think of the name last night. The Sutton Hoo belt would literally cost a second mortgage, wouldn't it, with the big gold buckle and the purse lid, not to mention any of the little gold and garnet thingies? Even assuming the replica was brass or painted plastic and glass it'd still be a small fortune just for the time to make it.<br /><br />Rant all you like :-) I think a large part of Arthur's enduring appeal is that there is so little known that anyone can make anything they like of the legend, and can locate Arthur where they like, make him of whatever ethnic/political/religious/social background they like, and so on. Christopher Gidlow refers to it as the "King Arthur shared my postcode" school of scholarship. I don't greatly mind any of it, until people start insisting that they have Discovered the Right Answer and all other theories are therefore wrong, when I tend to lose patience. One of the things I liked about Gidlow's book was his readiness to accept that many of the roles suggested for a historical Arthur aren't mutually exclusive, so they could all be partly right.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-21917958250898596122007-01-18T16:20:00.000+00:002007-01-18T16:20:00.000+00:00Carla, yes the Prittlewell Prince was called the K...Carla, yes the Prittlewell Prince was called the King of Bling, and it very much describes the Anglo-Saxon elite; they loved to be showy. I usually like to portray low status, but I love the AS stuff, so have bought the bling when I've seen it. I did manage to turn down a replica of the Sutton Hoo belt, after all I'm portraying a female.<br /><br />btw, I've certainly seen plenty of books purporting to look at the history of Arthur with barely an mention of Ambrosius in their index. It's one of the reasons I'm so jaded about the whole Arthur business. People seem to like to make Arthur into what *they* want him to be, and that would be fine, as long as they acknowledge that they are picking and choosing. In my writing I kick him up north (out of the way, for the most part) because it serves my purposes, nothing more. And I can as legimately kick him up north, as the next person can claim he was a Celtic (sic) king operating out of Wales. Oops, rant over ;-)Alex Bordessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360540101147770320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-3650820191203855352007-01-17T20:16:00.000+00:002007-01-17T20:16:00.000+00:00Constance - Roman influence lingered a very long t...Constance - Roman influence lingered a very long time in some places - have you sen Ken Dark's book on 'Britain and the end of the Roman Empire'? It's one of his central arguments. <br />I find the prose tales a bit of an acquired taste - Dream of Macsen Wledig is the one I like best.<br /><br />Alex - I think you'll find it worth a read. He seems to be taking a reasonably balanced view of the sources, though he's looking for information on Arthur so naturally he focuses there.<br /><br />Gabriele - indeed, all historians select from their material according to what they/their audience is interested in. Some put more of a spin on it than others :-)<br /><br />Constance/Alex - Didn't someone call the burial at Chelmsford the 'King of Bling'?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-89002975030231927652007-01-17T17:03:00.000+00:002007-01-17T17:03:00.000+00:00Alex - I have a peplos... very plain Jane. I also ...Alex - I have a peplos... very plain Jane. I also have a generic overtunic and cloak. I save my bling for playing Byzantine. :)<br />I wish we had a Roman reenactment group here.Constance Brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964121072645959593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-3782978709793882392007-01-17T10:45:00.000+00:002007-01-17T10:45:00.000+00:00without knowing their sources it's a matter of deb...<i>without knowing their sources it's a matter of debate how much they knew and how much they guessed or interpolated. </i><br /><br />And how much is propaganda. They all wrote for an audience. ;)<br /><br />I've done some research for texts about Charlemagne which show a clear audience-related bias, but it already is valid for Tacitus and his idealised German women.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-49839234027224400752007-01-16T22:59:00.000+00:002007-01-16T22:59:00.000+00:00Duh, I've just checked my shelf, and find that the...Duh, I've just checked my shelf, and find that the book is there :-) I picked it up some months ago cheap, but have yet to read it. On checking the index, I realise I got it as it had a good ratio of Arthur to Ambrosius references. If the latter has more than 5 page refs, I tend to look a little closer ... If it even has multiple page refs to Ambrosius, like pages 5-10, 61-63, etc. then I know I'm probably onto something with a little balance :-)<br /><br />Constance, I do Late Roman/Early Anglo-Saxon re-enactment. It's peplos time for both sets, although my AS persona has a particular liking for bling.Alex Bordessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360540101147770320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1534818438526064762007-01-16T21:43:00.000+00:002007-01-16T21:43:00.000+00:00Not that Herodotus is the be all end all of histor...Not that Herodotus is the be all end all of historians... I was just curious. It's very hard to do reenactment as an early Welsh because of the lack of information. I just decided Roman influence lingered on a long time and call it good. My persona would rather be Roman anyhow. :)<br /><br />I think I have several of the prose tales in my TBR collection, but never got to them. yet.Constance Brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964121072645959593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-17860050759388180672007-01-16T18:26:00.000+00:002007-01-16T18:26:00.000+00:00Constance - There's no Welsh equivalent of Herodot...Constance - There's no Welsh equivalent of Herodotus that I'm aware of. If there were, there wouldn't be the debates about whether Arthur existed.<br /><br />In Welsh language, I can think of several prose tales such as the Four Branches of the Mabinogi, Culhwlch and Olwen, Dream of Macsen Wledig, Dream of Rhonabwy and some Arthurian romances, the Saints' Lives, laws, and various genealogies of medieval Welsh royal families that purport to stretch back into the post-Roman period. Plus the poetry. All in medieval manuscripts, and none of which claims to be a history.<br /><br />In Latin but written by British people, I can think of two histories, Historia Brittonum and Gildas' De Excidio Britanniae. Neither seems to me very much like Herodotus. Historia Brittonum resembles a compendium, as if the author assembled pieces from various sources and wrote them out in a more or less logical order. The prologue in some of the surviving versions says "I made a heap of all I found", which is not quite fair because it's more structured than a heap, but gives you an idea. Gildas is an impassioned sermon and call for repentance.<br /><br />Much later you get to the histories written by medieval chroniclers such as Geoffrey of Monmouth and Gerald of Wales, but these are written more than 500 years after the gap in the records in which Arthur must have lived (if he existed at all) and so without knowing their sources it's a matter of debate how much they knew and how much they guessed or interpolated.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-44717517196144200162007-01-16T16:28:00.000+00:002007-01-16T16:28:00.000+00:00The only things I've ever read from the Welsh was ...The only things I've ever read from the Welsh was poetry, were there any historical writings that I'm missing? A Welsh Herodotus perhaps? :)Constance Brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964121072645959593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-290612026607633502007-01-15T08:55:00.000+00:002007-01-15T08:55:00.000+00:00Hello, Elena, and welcome. It's a book well worth...Hello, Elena, and welcome. It's a book well worth reading, espcially for anyone interested in whether there might be some history underneath the legends.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-51633921639680674532007-01-14T23:12:00.000+00:002007-01-14T23:12:00.000+00:00Very interesing, Carla, I would like to read Gidlo...Very interesing, Carla, I would like to read Gidlow's book. Arthurian legend has always intrigued me and there always seems to be more to discover....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-9104064924240937822007-01-13T18:40:00.000+00:002007-01-13T18:40:00.000+00:00Constance - It's well worth reading, and there's a...Constance - It's well worth reading, and there's a paperback edition to keep the price down. The medieval knight trappings come from the 12th-15th centuries and probably culminate in Thomas Malory's <i>Morte d'Arthur</i>. How do you mean by 'is Welsh writing generally ignored apart from the poems'? - can you expand on that a bit, please, and I'll try and answer if I can?<br /><br />Rick - Christopher Gidlow examines that argument in the book and comes down on the opposing side, for roughly the reasons I set out in the post, i.e. that the earliest sources don't have folkloric elements about Arthur. Historia Brittonum does have folklore - dragons, prophecy - but they relate to Ambrosius not to Arthur. There are always arguments about the actual dates of the sources, as they all exist in medieval manuscripts. It's argued (often on linguistic grounds like spelling) that some were copied in whole or in part from older documents that haven't survived, but it's not certain what was copied, when or what the date of the lost original (if any) was. Hence the arguments. The earliest sources with undisputed dates (Bede in 731 AD, Gildas some time in the mid-500s) don't menton Arthur's name. If one says that Culhwlch and Olwen, which does contain plenty of folklore, is older than Historia Brittonum and the Annales, then one can say that the earliest mention of Arthur is in a folkloric context, and use the absence of the name from Gildas and Bede as support. Interpretation of the evidence is up to the reader, and I don't think it can be proved with certainty either way. I happen to agree with Gidlow that the simplest explanation is that there was a historical Arthur who won a battle at Badon, but the evidence (such as it is) can support other explanations. See if you can get a copy of his book - or reread the sources, most of them are online in full-text translation in various academic libraries and I've put links to the translations in the post - and see what you think.<br /><br />Gabriele - it's well worth reading, and you may find the second half (on the development of the legend) especially interesting. Since it's non-fiction it may well be available in a university library if you want to try before you buy. The ISBN number in the post is from the hardback, as I borrowed it from the library before deciding to buy a copy, but there's a cheaper paperback available (ISBN 0-7509-3419-0). You can buy direct from the <a href="www.suttonpublishing.co.uk">publisher's website</a> if amazon.de doesn't have it.<br /><br />Alex, Rick - Christopher Gidlow touches on the Ambrosius-Arthur discussion in the book. As I said above, the evidence can bear multiple interpretations, and it can be argued that Ambrosius was the victor at Badon, Arthur never existed (or the same man had two names), and deeds done by Ambrosius were attributed to Arthur by Historia Brittonum, Annales Cambriae and all later writers, one of whom inserted the name Arthur in the text of Y Gododdin. Up to the reader to make up their own mind.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-21170556718188096572007-01-13T16:13:00.000+00:002007-01-13T16:13:00.000+00:00Ambrosius is a leading candidate, and the question...Ambrosius is a leading candidate, and the question then becomes nearly a quibble over whether he's simply Arthur under a different name.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-15798124049978438582007-01-13T11:10:00.000+00:002007-01-13T11:10:00.000+00:00Why assume the victor at Badon is Arthur? It could...Why assume the victor at Badon is Arthur? It could just as easily be the virtually ignored Ambrosius. A can of worms, to be sure and I absolutely refuse to go through the motions of argument about it again :-) <br /><br />Thorough review, as always, Carla.Alex Bordessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360540101147770320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-80433957785787279652007-01-12T19:47:00.000+00:002007-01-12T19:47:00.000+00:00Oh, that sounds like another Arthur book for my sh...Oh, that sounds like another Arthur book for my shelves. :) I've collected a few because I once played with the idea of writing an Arthur novel, but I think the market is stuffed with them and Cornwell did a great job. :)<br /><br />What interests me now is the use of Arthur in literature to further political aims, something that happened with Charlemagne as well. <br /><br />And how did he sneak into the geneaology of the Campbell chiefs? Actually, I have an idea. :)Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-77012556483970202962007-01-12T17:41:00.000+00:002007-01-12T17:41:00.000+00:00I guess I'm gonna have to hunt down this book!
Un...I guess I'm gonna have to hunt down this book!<br /><br />Until recently I always leaned toward there being a historical Arthur, but I was pushed the other way by articles on the Arthurian Resources website.<br /><br />http://www.arthuriana.co.uk<br /><br />To summarize, the argument (made by Thomas Green) is that <i>most</i> early Welsh references to Arthur come in purely folkloric type context - in American terms, more analogous to Paul Bunyan and his blue ox than to George Washington chopping down a cherry tree or throwing a silver dollar across the Delaware. On this basis, Green argues, the "Arthur" is more likely to be a folk-hero to whom historical exploits got attached than a historical hero to whom folklore elements got attached.<br /><br />Just to clarify, this is no refutation of Gidlow's arguments or yours, only a summary of an argument that recently persuaded me toward a disappointing conclusion. I'd be delighted for Gidlow to re-persuade me in the other direction!Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-83910794615787834322007-01-12T16:29:00.000+00:002007-01-12T16:29:00.000+00:00Thank you for that review, Carla, that was fascina...Thank you for that review, Carla, that was fascinating. I may have to acquire that book. (Like I need more to read!) I'm always interested in the way people build their case when it comes to historical figures/times. And of couse you've hit on my pet peeve, modern assumptions that everything pre-1800 was barbaric. I think that's why I'm interested in ancient engineering - amazing what our ancestors did with what they had. <br /><br />So when did the whole medieval knight thing get laid over the top of the Arthur legend? Is Welsh writing generally ignored except for the poems? --Weird connection, I did a woodblock print of a soldier headed to the battle of 'Mynydd Baddon'.Constance Brewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17964121072645959593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-34292313051864656682007-01-12T13:00:00.000+00:002007-01-12T13:00:00.000+00:00Bernita - well, there are at least two sides to ev...Bernita - well, there are at least two sides to every war (often a lot more than two) so by definition one side's defeat is another side's victory, isn't it? Gildas seems keen on the unrelieved woe, but then his whole book is a sermon on the theme of 'The country is going to the dogs and it's all the fault of the wicked/corrupt/stupid government'. (Some things never change). The other chronicles though seem to give a much more varied perspective. What I chiefly dislike is the casual modern assumption that the Romans brought civilisation when they arrived, took it away with them when they 'left', and before and after was a bunch of savages in mud huts. I rather think it was more complicated than that.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-86060542471674704632007-01-12T12:38:00.000+00:002007-01-12T12:38:00.000+00:00"If one accepts that there was a military hero who..."If one accepts that there was a military hero who led some or all of the British to victory against some or all of the Saxons in a battle at a place called Badon some time in the late 5th or early 6th century – which is not at all implausible – then one might as well accept the name given to him in the same sources and call him Arthur."<br /><br />And why not?<br />There's seems to be a determined and morose effort at times to paint that period - if not the entire Dark Ages - as a succession of unrelieved defeats.<br />Woe, woe, man-born-of-woman, etc.<br />Perhaps because of the ecclesiastical nature of the chroniclers.<br /><br />VERY well done, Carla.<br />Thank you.<br />And I agree.Bernitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05264585685253812090noreply@blogger.com