tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post421083519836708442..comments2023-11-29T07:39:34.401+00:00Comments on Carla Nayland Historical Fiction: Cochrane: Britannia’s Sea Wolf, by Donald Thomas. Book reviewCarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-67571061770281698852008-02-05T12:14:00.000+00:002008-02-05T12:14:00.000+00:00Hazel-rah, Rick - One of the things Cochrane's fat...Hazel-rah, Rick - One of the things Cochrane's father invented was apparently a coal-tar covering for ship's hulls to prevent shipworm, but the Admiralty wouldn't take it up (because the shipyard contractors liked the regular income from repairing ships - "the worm is our friend", as one of them told Cochrane's father). I suppose it would have been a sort of forerunner of modern anti-fouling paint if it had come into use.<BR/><BR/>The revolution itself probably played havoc with the French economy, on top of the wars in America. It is hard to reconcile that with the idea that French ships were better built, isn't it? Rick probably has the rights of it when he says they were better designed. Can you work out some aerodyamics/hydrodynamics empirically, even without the theoretical base? People must have known for ages that certain shapes of ship were faster or more manoeuvrable or higher capacity - aren't Viking knorrs (the long-distance cargo carrier) quite different in shape from the longships?<BR/><BR/>As an ordinary moviegoer, I can confirm that I didn't recognise the model as <I>Constitituion</I> :-) BTW, I looked her up on Wikipedia just now, having not known anything about her beforehand, and she sounds quite a ship!<BR/><BR/>Sarah - I'll look out for that, many thanks. I'd like to read someone else's take on Cochrane to get a different viewpoint.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-10284472855769183382008-02-05T09:27:00.000+00:002008-02-05T09:27:00.000+00:00You know your ships, Rick.'Old Ironsides' and I go...You know your ships, Rick.<BR/><BR/>'Old Ironsides' and I go way back.<BR/>The captain at the time of her battle with HMS Guerriere and I share the same surname, which excited me as a child for childish reasons. <BR/>Also when I was a kid someone gave me a jigsaw painting of her in port. Being a thing of great sentimental value, the last time I assembled it, I got it framed. <BR/>If I ever get to Boston, she's at the top of the list of things I want to see.Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15489091434613178568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-72715728308239049242008-02-04T19:08:00.000+00:002008-02-04T19:08:00.000+00:00Thanks for this. I've got my eye on a new Cochrane...Thanks for this. I've got my eye on a new Cochrane biography:<BR/><A HREF="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cochrane-Dauntless-Life-Adventures-Thomas/dp/074758088X/ref=wl_it_dp?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3HCPOVXL3NDLA&colid=2RPA2ASZXVMJK" REL="nofollow">Cochrane the Dauntless by David Cordingly</A>,<BR/>who also wrote Billy Ruffian, a thrilling biography of a ship of the line, HMS Bellerophon, which fought in the major sea battles of the Napoloeonic Wars, carried Napoleon to England after his surrender and sadly ended her days as a prison hulk. It's a terrific read which is just as good on ship design and timber as it is on seamanship and battles.Sarah Cuthbertsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17841282823433026980noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-50221693302171990962008-02-04T17:12:00.000+00:002008-02-04T17:12:00.000+00:00"French built better ships."I don't think this had..."French built better ships."<BR/><BR/>I don't think this had much to do with materials or workmanship, but a perception that the French <I>designed</I> better ships. They tried to be more scientific, though 18th c. applied science was pretty useless for designing sailing ships. (You need hydrodynamics and aerodynamics.)<BR/><BR/>In practical terms, though, French ships tended to be larger for their rate, and lighter in construction - both making them superior performers, at cost of standing up less well in a yardarm to yardarm fight.<BR/><BR/>Both sides followed sound doctrine. The outnumbered French needed individually superior ships - the same reasoning behind the US super frigates. The Brits needed maximum coverage, meaning lots of ships, even if individually smaller and weaker, relying on Jack Tar to make up the difference. Which he generally did. <BR/><BR/>By the way, Hazel-Rah, you are right about the ship model in <I>Master and Commander.</I> No ordinary moviegoer would have a clue, but the model is of one of the big US frigates, probably <I>Constitution</I> class.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-48567461356301869672008-02-04T12:55:00.000+00:002008-02-04T12:55:00.000+00:00Yeah I'm very interested in Super Tuesday. This co...Yeah I'm very interested in Super Tuesday. This could be a momentous time in a quiet way. Even a Republican candidate is a declared non-sceptic about the impacts of pollution, for example. <BR/>We've just changed governments in Australia. The conservatives got thumped. There were all sorts of reasons for that but one of the winning strategies was to link the economy with the environment. In a drought-affected country with a largely agricultural economy this resonated deep and loud. <BR/><BR/>But back to ships... <BR/>If the timber was allowed to season properly, the ship could be servicable for more than 30 years but, as Rick said, there was often not the time. British shipyards did adapt well to the practice of coppering the bottoms, which was a recent technological development. This fought off ship-worm and kept the hulls cleaner, so they could keep good speed for half a year out of dock which, if you are fighting often far from home, is very advantageous. The wars in North America gutted the economy of France leading up to the revolution, and so the latter couldn't function quite as industriously when it came to their shipyards. Or so a theory goes.. I can't reconcile that with the "French built better ships" notion.Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15489091434613178568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-36958874395034847582008-02-03T19:42:00.000+00:002008-02-03T19:42:00.000+00:00Even I've heard of Super Tuesday! I hope the outc...Even I've heard of Super Tuesday! I hope the outcome goes the way you want :-)<BR/><BR/>Quite right, the pressures of warfare tend to play havoc with normal standards of construction and maintenance. That might even argue that French ships tended to be better built because Napoleon was more interested in the army and so there was less pressure on the navy. Even with a charitable interpretation, though, it seems evident there were a lot of fingers in the till at the Admiralty.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-74517663021525942008-02-03T19:16:00.000+00:002008-02-03T19:16:00.000+00:00I try to escape from politics now and then! I vote...I try to escape from politics now and then! I vote Tuesday, "Super Tuesday" - and on my side it is looking razor close. Whether it's My Girl or The Other Guy, I'm hoping the outcome is decisive enough that I can breathe again. :)<BR/><BR/>There are a lot of factors in ship construction. For example, wartime construction is liable to use green timber, leading to swift rot. No real way to avoid it, either. Ideally, timber was seasoned in brine for several years, and the half built ship left to weather in frame for a year or two before planking up. But big construction programs and time pressure rule out both.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-79324075738765316602008-02-03T15:18:00.000+00:002008-02-03T15:18:00.000+00:00Georgie Lee and Gabriele - Sorry I missed your com...Georgie Lee and Gabriele - Sorry I missed your comments earlier! Georgie, it's a great read if you like action and adventure.<BR/>Gabriele, I think even Cochrane would have had a hard time establishing an independent maritime power with one wallowing collier that could only sail before the wind and that not very fast! Now if they'd given him a frigate....Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-38662168800512674692008-02-02T16:40:00.000+00:002008-02-02T16:40:00.000+00:00Rick - Hi! I wasn't expecting to see you again un...Rick - Hi! I wasn't expecting to see you again until November :-) I recognised several of Cochrane's exploits from the Hornblower novels, including the troops on the coast road - though Cochrane's action was actually even more spectacular than Hornblower's in that he positioned his ship exactly where he could hit the cavalry as they crossed the only short stretch on the road where it was open to the sea. If I remember rightly, Hornblower in the <I>Sutherland</I> had a mile or more of open road to play with. I haven't spotted as many incidents that were used in the Aubrey novels because I'm not as familiar with them - Hazel-rah is the expert on Jack Aubrey's career.<BR/><BR/>I wonder if there are any statistics available about the standard of French and British ships? There might be, given that both countries had bureaucracies by then :-) It might be a good PhD subject. I do remember Sharpe's men are always looking for French packs because they are more comfortable to carry than the British ones, and as Cornwell's knowledge of the Peninsular War is encyclopaedic that might well be a real snippet from something like a surviving diary. Given that Napoleon was foremost a land commander, if anything I'd expect the French Navy to have got short-changed when it came to resources, but that's pure guesswork on my part.<BR/><BR/>That's an exact parallel with the modern practice in some corporate IT departments, who have learned to disguise new computers as replacement parts when the bean-counters put a blanket ban on all new capital purchases. New laptop? No, Mr Accountant, it's a replacement screen with integral motherboard.<BR/><BR/>Hazel-rah - I remember the model of the ship now you mention it, though I still can't remember how it helped Aubrey win the sea fight. I shall have to watch the film again and pay attention to that bit!Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-5941789468621040632008-02-02T05:29:00.000+00:002008-02-02T05:29:00.000+00:00Carla,I can't remember the exact particulars witho...Carla,<BR/>I can't remember the exact particulars without watching Master and Commander again, but two of the crew built a model of the hull of the ship, which gave Aubrey a better idea of how she would handle.<BR/><BR/>By the way Rick,<BR/>I'm Australian, and we have no equivalent to the primaries in our system and I'm finding yours quite interesting. <BR/>But then... we aren't getting wall-to-wall coverage of every little thing the candidates do.Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15489091434613178568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-65871437274362824552008-02-02T04:44:00.000+00:002008-02-02T04:44:00.000+00:00What a perfect time and place to escape from the U...What a perfect time and place to escape from the US political primary wars!<BR/><BR/>Not only Jack Aubrey but Horatio Hornblower swipes elements of Cochrane's career - at least, at one point he attacks cavalry on a coast road, though with a ship of the line.<BR/><BR/>A quibble: I don't know that French ships were better built - they were regarded as faster, but British ones generally stood up better under fire. A difference in doctrine and design philosophy. A British frigate captain, however, might well prefer to take his chances with a more lightly built but faster ship!<BR/><BR/>Naval corruption can be spectacular, because it is easy to pull the wool over the eyes of auditors who lack nautical expertise. Even practices not quite corrupt can be strange, such as building entirely new ships under the guise of "rebuilding" old ones. (Because Parliament/Congress was more willing to pay for repairs to existing ships than to build new ones.)Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-58096630775894186252008-02-01T23:46:00.000+00:002008-02-01T23:46:00.000+00:00Looks like the Admiralty can be glad Cochrane didn...Looks like the Admiralty can be glad Cochrane didn't build and independent Kingdom of Orkney while he was stationed there. :)<BR/><BR/>Will put that one on my To Buy list.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-61342679763749238062008-01-30T18:59:00.000+00:002008-01-30T18:59:00.000+00:00Sounds like a great read.Sounds like a great read.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12019450793013285292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-33700028059468131192008-01-30T17:23:00.000+00:002008-01-30T17:23:00.000+00:00Hazel-rah - that's an interesting comment about Fr...Hazel-rah - that's an interesting comment about French ships being prized because they were better built. It's not mentioned in the biography, but unless the French procurement system was as bad as the British one it seems quite likely. I remember in the film <I>Master and Commander</I> someone had worked in the shipyards at Boston (was it Boston?) and knew about the design of the opposing ship, and seem to remember that information was somehow important in helping Aubrey figure out how to fight it, though I can't remember the details. Presumably in the film the French had bought the ship from the Americans, or something?<BR/><BR/>Bernita - his marriage seems to fit with the rest of his life, doesn't it?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-11780733743036559472008-01-30T11:38:00.000+00:002008-01-30T11:38:00.000+00:00Seems many of the truly competent were at odds wit...Seems many of the truly competent were at odds with the Admiralty.<BR/>Sentimental of me, I suppose, but I'm glad he found love.Bernitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05264585685253812090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-18595851519896109442008-01-30T11:34:00.000+00:002008-01-30T11:34:00.000+00:00Haven't read this and don't know much about Cochra...Haven't read this and don't know much about Cochrane but the Jack Aubrey stories are based heavily on his exploits.<BR/><BR/>The comments about sub-standard construction and provisioning is interesting. I think French ships were highly prized precisely because they were better built.<BR/><BR/>The American frigates of the war of 1812 in particular were superior vessels. They were larger than normal frigates and were a sort of proto-cruiser if we think in modern terms of what they were intended to be: faster than anything more heavily armed, more heavily armed than anything faster. One of them is still in service I seem to recall.<BR/><BR/>In the film Master and Commander the adversary was a French ship, but in the source material, which was more than one novel, it was American. The film makes a coy reference to American ship design though.Magpiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15489091434613178568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-56549684737449380642008-01-29T18:11:00.000+00:002008-01-29T18:11:00.000+00:00Susan - it's well worth reading.William - Hello an...Susan - it's well worth reading.<BR/><BR/>William - Hello and welcome. Which of his other books would you particularly recommend?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-24221619970400826092008-01-29T12:21:00.000+00:002008-01-29T12:21:00.000+00:00As a writer of maritime historical fiction, I have...As a writer of maritime historical fiction, I have read this fine treatise on Cochrane as secondary source research. Well done and mostly accurate. Mr. Thomas has done others as well which are equally interesting. I would recommend any of them to anyone interested in learning about figures on history.<BR/>William H. White www.seafiction.netAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-39819920294610720542008-01-29T03:21:00.000+00:002008-01-29T03:21:00.000+00:00Sounds fascinating! Will look for this one.Sounds fascinating! Will look for this one.Susan Higginbothamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517907583894026599noreply@blogger.com