tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post113659162551866691..comments2023-11-29T07:39:34.401+00:00Comments on Carla Nayland Historical Fiction: Role of women in historical fiction - Anglo-Saxon EnglandCarlahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-5706527529962598902009-09-09T12:12:19.270+01:002009-09-09T12:12:19.270+01:00Doug - indeed, real behaviour depends on the indiv...Doug - indeed, real behaviour depends on the individual and the circumstances and can be much more varied than social stereotypes pretend. Maybe there were a few real-life Eowyns on the battlefields of early medieval Europe, though I doubt there were armies of them!Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-25512458775294210662009-09-07T14:42:36.199+01:002009-09-07T14:42:36.199+01:00Hi Carla
Better late than never.
I think that th...Hi Carla<br />Better late than never. <br />I think that the roles of the sexes tend to be one or the other, rather than being universal. Speaking as a man who (while quite interested in women!) has no interest in other alleged masculine pursuits such as rugby or fighting, and bearing in mind that some women athletes are found by modern techniques to be genetically male, I see no reason whatsoever that the occasional woman could not feel inspired to dress up for battle and go and do her bit!<br />DougDoughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02204909202506240971noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-66213043061388874522006-12-06T05:12:00.000+00:002006-12-06T05:12:00.000+00:00http://www.healthinsurance.net.in
cool sitehttp://www.healthinsurance.net.in<br />cool siteAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136916469882761522006-01-10T18:07:00.000+00:002006-01-10T18:07:00.000+00:00Someone did the meeting between Grace O'Malley and...Someone did the meeting between Grace O'Malley and Elizabeth I in a radio drama, years ago. Robin Maxwell has written a novel on the subject 'The Wild Irish', but I haven't read it.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136683343550918742006-01-08T01:22:00.000+00:002006-01-08T01:22:00.000+00:00Grace O'Malley!I'm surprised that Maureen O'Hara n...Grace O'Malley!<BR/><BR/>I'm surprised that Maureen O'Hara never played her in a movie. Her meeting with Elizabeth I just cries out for treatment, two women leaders of such different background.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136680533026767032006-01-08T00:35:00.000+00:002006-01-08T00:35:00.000+00:00Now, here's a 16th century kick ass woman for you....Now, <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_O'Malley" REL="nofollow">here</A>'s a 16th century kick ass woman for you. Courtesy of a writer buddy who knows quite a bit about Irish history.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136663523105386082006-01-07T19:52:00.000+00:002006-01-07T19:52:00.000+00:00I understood it was in the field.It was her army t...I understood it was in the field.It was her army that encouraged the Londoners to chase Matilda out.Bernitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05264585685253812090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136654648782986352006-01-07T17:24:00.000+00:002006-01-07T17:24:00.000+00:00Elizabeth obviously had "issues" about marriage, w...Elizabeth obviously had "issues" about marriage, what with Dad axing Mom. (And in case she was too young to get it the first time, the re-run with Kathee Howard sort of made the point, er edge.)<BR/><BR/>I don't know, though, that she didn't connect with her body. Her affair with "Sweet Robin" Dudley may not have gone all the way, but it entertained and scandalized all the courts of Europe. In spite of her eventual Virgin Queen image, and Mary's sexy image, Elizabeth was likely the more sensual of the two women.<BR/><BR/>As for government that sux, if judged by our standards, what 16th c. government didn't?Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136653260530301762006-01-07T17:01:00.000+00:002006-01-07T17:01:00.000+00:00I think Mary was a very physical woman who loved t...I think Mary was a very physical woman who loved the hunt, long rides, sports, sex ... That brought her close to male behaviour and surely added to the problems with Elizabeth who had a brain to outwit many men, but obviously never really 'connected with her body', to use a modern psychological term.<BR/><BR/>Elisabeth, we have a female chancellor (or ist it chancelorette *grin*) but it doesn't make a difference. The government still sucks.Gabriele Campbellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17205770868139083575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136652260685338882006-01-07T16:44:00.000+00:002006-01-07T16:44:00.000+00:00Carla - yes, in 16th c. Scotland a pistol was like...Carla - yes, in 16th c. Scotland a pistol was likely a good thing to have on hand. Still, Mary did ride out herself on the Chaseabout Raid.<BR/><BR/>Elizabeth definitely sought to avoid war. She did have the advantage of England's situation, with no direct frontier except Scotland, and her inclinations saved her from silly things like trying to play Henry V, as Dear Old Dad had done.<BR/><BR/>I don't recall the field hospital, but it sounds plausible. Isabella did tend to serve as quartermaster-general of the army, sort of a logical extension of the lady's role as good castle-wife out into the field.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136647889828463652006-01-07T15:31:00.000+00:002006-01-07T15:31:00.000+00:00Bernita - No, you haven't already said it, and I d...Bernita - No, you haven't already said it, and I didn't know it. Another thing to look up! But are we talking about 'general' as in field commander, or 'general' as in strategist?Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136647766792717552006-01-07T15:29:00.000+00:002006-01-07T15:29:00.000+00:00Alex - Thanks! That's really useful, I will check...Alex - Thanks! That's really useful, I will check the site and see about ordering a copy.<BR/><BR/>Rick - Isn't Isabella credited with the first military field hospital (in medieval Europe that is, because I'm sure the Roman legions had them and I have no idea about civilisations such as China etc)? <BR/><BR/>I think there's a case that Elizabeth was exceptionally anti-war, in part because it would have meant she would have had to cede control of her field troops to a man and she hated ceding control. She was any man's equal in politics and diplomacy, so those were the battlegrounds she chose if at all possible.<BR/><BR/>In the case of Mary, perhaps anyone would have wanted a pistol in 16th C Scotland in the middle of a civil war!Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136647157337680142006-01-07T15:19:00.000+00:002006-01-07T15:19:00.000+00:00Interesting comment in Beowulf regarding Grendel's...Interesting comment in Beowulf regarding Grendel's dam : "The dread was less by just so much as the strength of a woman, the war terror of women, is less than a man's."<BR/>Let's not forget also that Stephen's wife(also called Matilda/Maud) was one of his best generals. (Hope I didn't already say that.)<BR/>There's increasing archaelogical evidence that the Sythian women were sword-bearing cavalry.Bernitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05264585685253812090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136646952677036802006-01-07T15:15:00.000+00:002006-01-07T15:15:00.000+00:00Carla -Interesting parallel to the shift in domest...Carla -<BR/><BR/>Interesting parallel to the shift in domestic architecture. It probably did make it easier (relatively) for women once kingship was less directly tied to personal leadership in war. <BR/><BR/>The 16th c. queens are themselves transitional in this regard. Isabella didn't personally hack & hew, but she was right up there with hubby, sleeping in tents, etc. Mary Queen of Scots rode in the Chaseabout Raid with a pistol in her belt. Elizabeth, in spite of her Tilbury show, was the least warrior-queen of the lot, though it might have been different if her accession had been challenged.<BR/><BR/>Certainly at any time the women had to do it backwards and in high heels! Which is part of my reason for choosing a female protagonist. A prince in my gal's situation wouldn't have had a bed of roses, but nothing as tough as she does.Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136640734721736362006-01-07T13:32:00.000+00:002006-01-07T13:32:00.000+00:00Yes there are Germanic female burials with swords....Yes there are Germanic female burials with swords. There are also 'sword beaters' which are shorter than the average sword, and thought to be used in weaving, though there is rising debate about this.<BR/><BR/>There's a good booklet: Warrior Women of Northern Europe: a beginner's introduction by Lorraine Evans. It's not particularly well-edited or produced, but brings together a lot of evidence: http://www.lawa.co.uk/begin.htmAlex Bordessahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18360540101147770320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136633127239701422006-01-07T11:25:00.000+00:002006-01-07T11:25:00.000+00:00Rick - yes, it seems that some important cultural ...Rick - yes, it seems that some important cultural change happened in Europe in the 16th C that made ruling queens acceptable in a way that had not been the case in the earlier medieval period. My guess is that this reflects the decline in the importance of the warrior tradition as the major route to power - for example, it coincides with the replacement of the fortified castle (built for defence) by the stately home (built for display). I've seen it argued that this reflects the rise of commerce and trade as a source of wealth, whereas in the medieval world control of land was the primary source of wealth.<BR/><BR/>Agreed, inept medieval kings were sometimes tipped off their thrones either permanently (Richard II, Edward II) or temporarily (Henry III, although that might have been permanent if his son, the future Edward I, hadn't been so capable as a military commander). I'd say that the ability required for a woman to hold down the top job was higher than the ability required for a man to hold down the same job in the same circumstances. (Insert comment of your choice here about some things never changing).<BR/><BR/>Had Matilda been Eleanor of Aquitaine and Stephen still been Stephen, history might have turned out the other way. Ditto if Henry II had been more like Henry III; Eleanor might have unseated him (arguably that's what Catherine the Great of Russia did many centuries later). But pit a man and a woman of equal (in)ability against each other (Matilda vs Stephen; Eleanor vs. Henry II), and it's the man who wins. That, I think, reflects the prevailing social climate.Carlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11901028520813891575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136624836492562802006-01-07T09:07:00.000+00:002006-01-07T09:07:00.000+00:00Fascinating stuff. Now if only we could get a wom...Fascinating stuff. Now if only we could get a woman president of the USA. I vote for Oprah.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19922276.post-1136603440859539132006-01-07T03:10:00.000+00:002006-01-07T03:10:00.000+00:00Carla -I certainly agree with the main thing Gabri...Carla -<BR/><BR/>I certainly agree with the main thing Gabriele said - the roles of medieval women varied widely by time and place (or even within one).<BR/><BR/>Since my own setting is 16th century-esque, ruling queens are nada problem! It's amazing how many the real 16th c. had, including heavyweights Isabella and Elizabeth. (Isabella is even more remarkable given her relationship with Ferdinand, himself no cypher.) Then you have the powerful regents, like Catherine de Medici.<BR/><BR/>Regarding Matilda/Maud, it would be an interesting experiment if you could do it! She did hold her own for quite a long time, admitting that Stephen wasn't exactly a Henry II himself. Incompetent kings, though, couldn't rely on male-ness to stay on their thrones. <BR/><BR/>And speaking of Henry II, I have to imagine that if circumstances had made Eleanor of Aquitaine a reigning monarch, she would have been one tough lady to push aside! <BR/><BR/>-- RickRickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16932015378213238346noreply@blogger.com